Ninja origin.

[Hige Katsumori]

I've heard two sides of ninja-ness. One, they were assassins of the government. And two, they were secret orginizations of assassins that despised the government and wanted to destroy them. Two very different sides. They even contradict each other... Please help me figure this out D:

[otokomiraimarai]

3 Ninjas. Mighty Morphin Rangers. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Beverly Hills Ninja. Children have a fascination with the mysterious Ninja warriors of ancient Japan. Every Halloween they go trick-or-treating as Ninja - dressed in black, wearing hoods and sporting plastic Ninja swords. Fortunately the image of the Ninja in our society today is shifting to a more accurate depiction than the sinister henchman image of the 1980s. Ninja were not evil assassins who killed for fun. Ninja did engage in guerrilla warfare and espionage when necessary, but for the most part they were ordinary people who developed certain skills in order to survive the difficult times in feudal Japan's history. "Ninjutsu" is usually translated as the "art of stealth." The Japanese character, "nin" (also translated as "shinobi") has many meanings, such as perseverance, endurance, and sufferance. The term Ninjutsu is most commonly used to refer to the specific methods and techniques used by the Ninja. Ninjutsu as a way of life didn't happen overnight. It developed over the course of many years. The name Ninjutsu itself didn't come about until several generations after the Ninja lifestyle began.

Ninjutsu was created in central Honshu (the largest of the Japanese islands) about eleven hundred years ago. It was developed by mountain-dwelling families in an area not unlike the American Appalachians, where the terrain is rugged and remote. Ninja families were great observers of nature. They felt a close connection to the Earth, similar to the Native Americans, and their lifestyle was one that lived according to the laws of Nature, not against it. Ninja were also very spiritual people, and their beliefs became an integral part of Ninjutsu.

One of the spiritual influences was Shinto, "the way of the kami." Kami is the Japanese word for "god" or "deity." It implies, however, a feeling for a sacred or charismatic force, rather than a being. The early Japanese regarded their whole world: the rivers, mountains, lakes, and trees, to have their own energy and spirit.

Another spiritual influence on the Ninja was Mikkyo. Mikkyo, for the Ninja, was not a religion as much as it was a method for enhancing personal power. These methods included the use of secret words and symbols to focus their energy and intentions toward specific goals.

It is generally accepted that the methods found in Ninjutsu originated outside of Japan. After the fall of the T'ang dynasty in China, many outcast warriors, philosophers, and military strategists escaped to Japan to avoid punishment by the new Chinese rulers. It is believed that Ninja families were exposed to many of these exiled people's sophisticated warrior strategies and philosophies over the centuries, helping to influence and shape what became Ninjutsu.

The Ninja were also very much influenced by a group of people called Shugenja, who roamed the same mountainous sections as the Ninja. The Shugendo method of spiritual self-discovery
consisted of subjecting oneself to the harsh weather and terrain of the area in order to draw strength from the earth itself. They would walk through fire, stand beneath freezing waterfalls, and hang over the edges of cliffs in an effort to overcome fear and assume the powers of nature.

It would be incorrect to say that these three spiritual methods were the actual roots of Ninjutsu, but there is little doubt that they were a large influence. Ninjutsu was and is a separate philosophy.

The Ninja were not particularly warlike, yet they were constantly harassed by the ruling society of Japan. They were routinely subjected to unfair taxation and religious persecution. The Ninja eventually learned to act more and more efficiently in their own self-defense. They used their superior knowledge of the workings of nature, as well as specific military techniques passed down through the years, as weapons against the numerically superior government armies. They used any ruse, harbored any superstition, and employed any strategy to protect themselves. If necessary, they would use devious political manipulations to ensure peace.

There were as many as seventy or eighty Ninja clans operating in the Koga and Iga regions of Japan during the height of Ninja activity. Most of these Ninja were descendants of, or were themselves, displaced samurai. Therefore, they operated on the sidelines of the political schemes of the government. Sometimes a Ninja family would use its military or information-gathering resources to protect its members from becoming victims in a power play between competing samurai clans. Occasionally, a Ninja family would support one faction over another, if they felt it to be to their advantage.

As with any society, there were renegades who misused the training they received. Occasionally, "Ninja" would rent themselves out for espionage or assassination work. Unfortunately these outcasts have become the stereotype of the "evil ninja" that we see today in the media. They were, however, a minority. The average Ninja worked very much in conjunction with his family and community goals.

Ninja were not always primarily soldiers. Of course, certain Ninja operatives, or genin, were trained from childhood as warriors. But this training was usually precautionary. Genin Ninja knew that they might be called to help protect the community at some future time, but, they often spent most of their lives as farmers or tradespeople. Ninja intelligence gatherers sent to live in the strongholds of potential enemies were rarely required to act openly.

If an operative was called to action it was as a result of a carefully plotted, and usually desperate, plan. The genin would be contacted and assigned a mission by his chunin superior. The chunin, or middle man, was a "middle-man" between the jonin family leader and the operative. Jonin made all philosophical and long-range strategic decisions for the clan. Often, the identity of the jonin was kept secret from chunin and genin, alike. Of course certain historical periods required more secret activity than others. Eventually this activity virtually died out altogether but the legacies, in some cases, remained.


The Roots of Ninjutsu

Although there has been an evolution of Ninjutsu as a life philosophy over the centuries, the fundamental principles have remained virtually unchanged. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is more than 800 years old. Except for a relatively short period of notoriety prior to the reign of the Tokugawas, the art lived quietly in the hearts of just a few people. The Ninja were a separate society from the urban centered ruling class and the non-privileged classes which served them. Consider the gulf that must have existed between the new American government and the American Indians during the first 125 years following the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Although this is an incomplete and potentially misleading analogy, it may give you a better understanding on how Ninjutsu may have developed as a counterculture to the samurai-dominated Japanese society.

For hundreds of years Ninja families lived in the mountains, practicing their esoteric methods of approaching enlightenment through gaining an understanding of the basic laws of nature. History had taught them that they must be prepared to protect their family and their lifestyle. They perfected a system of martial arts that has earned them the reputation for being the most amazing warriors the world has ever known. It is this reputation that initially attracts most people.

The Ninja's reputation is put into a better perspective when some facts are brought to light. First, Ninja were not wizards or witches, of course, but ordinary men and women with a unique and misunderstood philosophical viewpoint. This philosophy became a very important part of their combat method. Hence, we refer to our art as Ninpo, the "po" suggesting "a higher order", or "encompassing philosophy." The samurai approach to combat was called bushido; it evolved from a general set of guidelines for the gentleman warrior into a formal discipline. The Ninja philosophy, though sharing many of the same values as the original samurai, evolved along a different cultural path.

The Ninja's sometimes devious tactics were seen by some as cowardly and disgusting.* From the Ninja point of view, however, guerrilla warfare versus a numerically superior force was plain good sense. The Ninja were outnumbered, as a rule, so they had to use unusual methods if they ever hoped to survive. Nevertheless, victory was not always ensured. Japanese history books tell of instances of entire Ninja clans being destroyed.

Many times, however, the unusual methods did succeed. Without a working knowledge of the Ninja philosophy, their opponents were unable to figure out the Ninjutsu strategies. The Ninja only seemed like wizards.

Second, stories which have created the modern image of the Ninja as thoughtless criminals, were written after the fact by historians who were sympathetic to the samurai point of view. Since Ninja were not bushi (followers of the samurais' strict code of martial ethics) they were looked down upon as being uncivilized.

Third, the exaggerations of Ninja abilities were started by the Ninja themselves as a deterrent to outside interference. The demonstrated prowess of the Ninja as warriors, as well as the fact that they were such a closed and uncommunicative society, combined to create an opportunity for them to exaggerate their own skills and surround themselves with an eerie cloak of mystery. It is very easy to be frightened of something that is not understood. Thus, this frightening and supernatural mystique was born.** If, however, it was merely the guerrilla tactics of the Ninja that were useful, the lore of the Ninja would not be of interest to the wide range of people who enjoy practicing Ninjutsu today. Far more than stealth or assassination techniques, Ninpo, or the essence of the Ninja's outlook, is a physical, emotional, and spiritual method of self-protection from the dangers that confront those on the warrior path to enlightenment.


* During the American Revolution, British Red Coats, accustomed to marching to battle in orderly phalanxes, were decimated by camouflaged Green Mountain Boy guerrilla forces shooting from behind trees. The Red Coats must have felt the same way. America won the war, however, so ourhistory books do not stress the British side of the story.

** In Viet Nam, many American soldiers were "spooked" by the thick, black jungles of Southeast Asia, and an enemy that was everywhere, yet never there. Thus the Viet Cong were able to use guerrilla tactics with great success. The Ninja, over the course of many centuries, made an art out of preying on the irrational fears and superstitions of their enemies.

***
From website - http://www.boston-ninpo.com/History.htm

[Sykoi]

Very nice; I skimmed the first few paragraphs and it looks like you got a good majority of your history correct (At least what I read) ;)

If you want this stickied, just tell me.

[otokomiraimarai]

dude whatever you want you can give me I dont care

[Yumi]

alot of that history of the ninja is OFF !

i recomend reading

NINJA
The True Story of Japans Secret Warrior Cult
by Stephen Turnbull
Forword by Dr Masaaki Hatsumi


and on a later thing in that the bottom in fact
you said and i Quote
"were decimated by camouflaged Green Mountain Boy guerrilla forces shooting from behind trees. "
they where called Minutemen or Rogers Rangers
they used green coats and brown pants

please if you going to state history that your not to clear on please read up on it or ask some one about it, or if you must please for the love of history dont say any thing about some thing unless your know what your talking about. In so many cases people have been proven wrong when not enough time or thought was put in to some thing, and then they say do or publish some thing thats not true and then get the repercustion from what they did and wonder why it happend like that.

(sorry if im being alittle blunt just hate to see some one thats trying to say some thing put there foot in there mouth, we are a samll but growning cominty of friends i hope and this is meant as more of a help full citte then a flame)

love
Yumi

[ODA-NOBUNAGA]

Maybe this will be of interest and informative to some of you ninja nuts

http://www.winjutsu.com/index.html

[tsuyoikenshi]

All good info. I would like to add something I read. Ninjas came about due to the bushido code. All samurai had to follow the Bushido code which forbids slaying unarmed people. Well, if they dishonored you then it was ok, but I digress. It also was forbidden to use "dirty tricks". Meaning your enemy must see you. You just couldn't lop Lord Nobunaga's head off while he was sleeping. If a samurai did something of this nature he would have to commit suicide, seppuku, which is pretty common knowledge.
Ninjas used all means available to slay anyone. They could cut your throat while you slept, poison your food, or shoot poison darts from dense covering. Warlords could hire ninjas to take out opposing politicians, whereas, a samurai would not kill a politician. Ninjas had no code of honor. In short ninjas came about due to the bushido code samurais had to adhere to. Without the bushido code ninjas wouldn't have been needed.

[Tenshin]

Good information, all of it seems pretty accurate, it's good to have something like this posted.

Ninjas weren't used solely for killing people Tsuyoi, mostly they were used in information gathering, espionage, sabotage, and the like. Of course assassination was what they were most popular for, and feared for, it's true that without samurai there would be no ninja, it was samurai that forced ninja out of their villages and into the mountains to train with the Yamabushi and develop what is known today and ninjutsu. Before that they were basically warriors who didn't follow bushido, and for that the Samurai fought them.

But yeah, without the bushido code, no ninja, but also no samurai, and that would make japan... china. A good book on ninjutsu, anything by Hatsumi sensei, "Understand. Good. Play." is the best I've seen so far, but it's out of print and hard to come by.

[ppharoah]

yep some good points especially the area that talks about Ninja as a society, they were their own Caste which isn't commonly known. They were shunned as they were equivalent to commoners who carried the dead in many regards. I don't believe it was until Tokugawa era that they were actually "recognized" when a Daimyo, Tokugawa Ieyasu gave them their own quarters in his castle. Hattori Hanzo's son, Masanari, had a contigent of men who served as guards at Edo castle.

[Trin]

when a Daimyo, Tokugawa Ieyasu gave them their own quarters in his castle.

Ieyasu wasn't just some Daimyo. He was the emperor.

[OmegaLord]

Ieyasu wasn't just some Daimyo. He was the emperor.

He was the first Tokugawa Shogun, lets not make any hisotrical incidents.

[Tenshin]

Yes he was the Shogun in the beginning of the 17th century, and brought peace as well as ruled for 200 years. He was a driven and fair leader, and lead the last family ever to be Shogun. But yeah, he did use the Togakure ninja in his regime.

[ppharoah]

Ieyasu wasn't just some Daimyo. He was the emperor.

an Emperor?

http://www.sizes.com/time/CHRNJapan_emper.htm

He did become Shogun though, in 1603 the emperor granted Ieyasu the title of shôgun, an honor helped along by his 'Minamoto' genealogy.

The Emperor was believed to be a divine being in Japanese culture until this century, although Daimyo and the Shogun were held in high regard they were never regarded with this distinction.

[Tenshin]

But during the feudal era of Japan, the Emperor had no real power, and it was the Shogun and his Daimyo that actually controlled the Country, the Meiji Emperor was just a figurehead, hense the Meiji Restoration, where the Shogunate was shut down and power was restored to the Emperor.

[BigNinjaPimp]

the ninja were just samurai who used comando tatics, like the navy seals. and they did have an honor code. some how stereo types have led people to belive that ninja's were farmers or whatever who had no honor who were hated by samurai. but all they were were samurai who were taught comado like tatics, which were called ninjitsu.

ninjutsu is one part of the curriculum (spl?) of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. TSKSR includes: kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, ryoto); iaijutsu (odachi); bojutsu (rokushaku bo); naginatajutsu (onaginata); sojutsu (su yari); jujutsu; shurikenjutsu; ninjutsu; chikujojutsu; gunbaiho; and in-yo kigaku.

The ninjutsu your thinking of is the Hollywood version, or McDojo version.

[nobody4422]

hmmm whered you get that information?

Its the first time Ive ever heard anything like that really. Ive heard one of the ninja origin theories is that they were that they formed from "disgraced" samurai who fled into the mountains after being defeated.

But that the ninja actually weer samurai is a new one to me. So if you could show a reference or something that would be helpful.

But simply juding from the fighting style and weaponry used (for example the weapons were much simpler and in particular the swords were not crafted like the katana but were more just sharpened slabs of metal.)

Im not saying that its wrong, Im just curious about it and would like to seemore information on it.

[BigNinjaPimp]

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/6.htm


made by a japanese historian on a japanese history forum.
its probably the most accurate record on the ninja iv seen.
I used to think all the myths were fact untill i was lectured by this guy.

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

[nobody4422]

Interesting account and I dont believe that it isnt true just a different take on it.

The version of ninja history which I tend to go by, and is often the more accepted is the version presented by the Bujinkan and soke Dr. Massaki Hatsumi. Informarion about the Bujinkan organization and Masski Hatsumi can be found on the site www.winjutsu.com.

This version can be found here http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_history.html

This isnt to say that its the true history or not, no one can really no for sure. But this seems to be a rather widely accepted version of it.


Edit: As far as the "Ninja-to" goes ive heard two different accounts of it. One is that it a short straight balde, forged not nearly as well as a samurais weapon making it generallty duller and and less durable. The second is that the weapon was forged very similarly to those of the samurai it that it was curved. But it was still shorter than those used by the samurai so as to allow for faster draws and better indoor and very close range fighting.

The second one is the one supported by the Bujinkan.
http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_weapons.html

Youll have to forgive the watered down nature of the information presented as it is more geared toward kids who have recently or will soon start training. This doesnt make it any less accurate though, and is supported in the books "Ninja: History and Traditon" by Dr. Massaki Hatsumi and "Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" by Jack Hoban.

[BigNinjaPimp]

bujikan is a chain of schools that teach ninjitsu. hatsumi is the person who teaches the closest to the real ninjitsu, but since he didnt live in the time period. his knowledge on the origin may be a little off. just no one really knows right now the complete history of the ninjas.

"Daimyo Takeda Shingen is a good example. He distrusted mercenaries and relied on his own samurai for covert intelligence gathering. He had three units of samurai who were trained in 'ninja' tactics.
"When his army took to the field these men were mounted samurai who rode ahead of the army. They would scout ahead to prevent ambushes and reconnaissance to locate the enemy army, keep track of its movement, count their numbers, send reports back of their findings.
When their own army is encamped, they perform sentry duty. They would be tasked to locate and intercept their enemy counterparts. They would gather intelligence by taking prisoners enemy scouts, sentries and messengers.
"When battle began, they fought as mounted samurai. Due to their advanced knowledge of the enemy composition, they could infiltrate, identify and eliminate enemy commanders, to disrupt and cause chaos in the enemy ranks. The simple act of removing the sashimono banner from behind their armour could enable them to 'mingle' with the enemy. Even before battle began, some could already be among the enemy ranks acting as spies, provocateurs, and saboteurs.
"These were the 'real' ninja of many of the samurai armies of the Sengoku period, samurai trained in covert operations.
"In certain situations, entire samurai armies operated like ninja in commando-style night attacks, ambushes and guerilla warfare. Ninja tactics were not alien to the rest of the rank and file samurai.
"In the event of a defeat and retreat, these men were also tasked as rear guard. To delay and disrupt enemy pursuit. The Shimazu left behind samurai as 'booby-traps'. They lay with the dead and acted as snipers.
"Because of their special training in counter intelligence, they were also very effective as personal bodyguards for daimyo. Who better to catch a ninja, but a samurai trained as one?
"During siege operations, special units of trained samurai would infiltrate the enemy castle disguised as enemy samurai. They would gather intelligence and caused chaos within through assassination and arson. They would aid the attacking army by eliminating sentries and opening the gates.
"One Iga ninja, Hattori Hanzo (the real one) was also a general in Tokugawa Ieyasu's army and commanded samurai in battle."
- Evalerio, Japanese Samurai History Forum


"The Yagyuu family--owner's of Ueno Castle in Iga--were well known practitioners of ninjutsu. Yet again, however, they were samurai--even serving as the kenjutsu instructors to the Tokugawa shogunate.
"What you're losing sight of is that "ninja" or "shinobi" is a role--it's a specific set of covert jobs. "Samurai" is a status--a class. You were samurai if you were born samurai, whether you commanded a squad of ashigaru, fought in the cavalry, performed espionage, or were in charge of the kitchens or road construction.
"Ninja" activities could range from the popular notion of assasination by climbing over the castle wall, sneaking past guards, killing a rival lord, and disappearing into the night to traveling around spreading false rumors, to reporting information overheard. It's a Venn diagram--the samurai circle is big, and only a small portion of it intersects the "ninja" circle. However, the "ninja" circle is small, and most, but not all, lies within the "samurai" circle. I'd draw this for you, but the software here doesn't allow it. True, the maid who overhears a conversation she shouldn't and passes it to the enemy for a small fee may not be samurai, but that's definitely within the realm of "ninja" activity--hence, she's part of the small group inside the ninja circle, but outside the samurai one.
"I can hear you saying "but that's not what ninjutsu is"--do some research into the words. 忍 (nin, or shinobi) means stealthy, surreptitious, etc. This can mean sneaking around in the shadows (忍ばせる shinobaseru, to conceal or hide, or 忍び込む, shinobikomu, to creep) or just hiding something from view (忍び笑い, shinobiwarai, laughing to one's self). 者 (sha/ja or mono) simply means person. A "shinobi no mono" was a spy or covert operative during the sengoku period. On the tactical side they were called "kusa" (grass)."
- Itdomer98, Japanese Samurai History Forum


some things about ninjas from the history forum

ninja/shinobi = samurai, or rather 'covert' samurai

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=samuraihistory&nav=start&prettyurl=%2Fsamuraihistory%2Fstart%2F

also hatsumi has been known to bend the ninja story to apeal to the masses, and also to make them seem less violent than they actually were. cause he also wants to preserve the art, and leaving out some of the nasty ninja history would attract more people to the dojo.

[Kinjo]

With so many styles that were all quite similar, and so much cross training and borrowing of techniques.

It cannot be said that all Ninja were this All Samurai were that,
what is a Ninja ? what is a Samurai?

I truely believe that back then you were known by your school, ur Ryu, and ur Skill. Ninja walked the streets as samurai, they were one and the same

It all depended on what was their Job to the Daimyo.

Hatsumi's sensei's version of the history of the Ninja I believe is but one account of many different accounts. Things like why/if the swords were straight or curved etc are insignifigant, because maybe This Ninja used a broken or cut down Katana, maybe another used a specially made Ninja-To.

For the purpose of a video game its easiest to lump everything into 2 catagories, Ninja and Samurai but in reality I think its a lot more complicated.

Again im going to refer to the Book musashi which I think illustrates it best.
There was a character in the book that made a very brief appearance, the author never stated he was a Ninja, and described him as a Man dressed as a Samurai who tried to help Otsu when she was in danger, But the Author kept hinting that there was something mysterious about this persons presence. Later The Author refered to this character as a well known practitioner of a Ryu rumoured to be a Ninjutsu Ryu.

I think this was a very subtle way to inroduce a Ninja character in the book, and you never really knew for sure if he was or not.

I always end up confusing myself when attempting to talk on this topic, but I think what I am trying to say is that I believe Ninja or samurai are just stereo types for people In different jobs from different Ryu's

Just read BigNinjaPimp's last post and I have to say I think he better described the thoughts in my mind than I could :P

I used to be Bujinkan so I am not anti Hatsumi at all, But yeah I agree with BigNinjaPimp totally

[Tenshin]

Well I trust Hatsumi over some historian on the internet. According to him, Ninja date back to the 1100s and they started out as warriors not unlike Samurai. However, they did not follow the bushido code, and as such, they were attacked. Eventually pushed into the mountains they trained with Yamabushi (warrior priests) who taught them different forms of combat, deception and according to folklore, magic. They learned from other sources as well; mostly chinese emmigrants who taught them more principals of combat and war, as well as introducing them to Sun Tzu's Art of War, and other such texts. Eventually they emerged, and established schools and villages and eventually became accepted, used and even relied on by the Shogun and various Daimyo.

Hatsumi doesn't make them seem less violent in any way. Ninjutsu is teaching people how to kill... I highly doubt he wishes to appeal to the masses. Ninja are FAR, FAR away from samurai.

Samurai train the sword ... ninja train everything, they are vastly different. That's like saying a Goverment spy is the same as a green berret. Do not pass assumptions based on the internet, especially a forum. Ninja training is COMPLETELY different from samurai training. It isn't a matter of birth, it's a matter of technique. If you were born a "samurai" who trained ninjutsu from birth, you were a ninja.

[Kinjo]

That's like saying a Goverment spy is the same as a green berret. Do not pass assumptions based on the internet, especially a forum. Ninja training is COMPLETELY different from samurai training. It isn't a matter of birth, it's a matter of technique. If you were born a "samurai" who trained ninjutsu from birth, you were a ninja.

From a combat point of view yes they probably have the same basic training

But you proved my point, that its the Style u learn that makes you one or the other.

Some people studied more than one style so what you consider them?
And How about Tanemura's School (I know he doesn't have the greatest rep since leaving Bujinkan but still hes very skillful) Genbukan is advertised as Samurai-Jutsu, but yet it is the same as Bujinkan effectively.

Maybe its more clear to say Samurai is Status
Ninjutsu is a Ryu of Martial Art

[Arakawa Nobuaki]

Hmm ok... first of, could we please call them shinobi, because the "N" word has such a negative ring to it (thanks to countless stupid movies)?

And now (sorry, I had to dig this out)...

The origin of shinobi goes back farther than the 1100s. There's a mention of shinobi work in the Shomonki (in the gunkimono) in the year 940. There's, however, no mention of any shinobi work in, for example, the Heike Monogatari, a fact that shouldn't come as surprise. The Heike Monogatari was written for an aristocratic audience. They wanted to hear about noble deeds on the battlefield, glorious charges, brave last stands, but not about the true face of warfare where deception and tricks were also part of the game. The majority of the stories from those days that survived until today follow exactly the same pattern (you can observe similar facts with European history).

A famous ancestor of shinobi activity was prince Yamato, who's skills in assassination still make him a "spiritual" ancestor of the shinobi. Whether his actual exploits really happened or are just tales, well, we'll never find out. However, I'd say that the myth around him is as true as Jingo Kogo's 3+ year pregnancy when she invaded Korea.

Now, with all due respect to this Hatsumi-sensei, but teaching something doesn't make one an expert in history. Additionally, keep one thing in mind, he's selling something, that alone makes him a rather weak source for actual, hard historic facts (same applies for the biggest moron when it comes to shinobi history: Stephen Hayes (this guy has been claiming so much crap in his books, it's sad, really, heck, his wife even claims that there are modern kunoichi, while she completely confuses the history of geisha with the history of kunoichi)). "My sensei said so" also doesn't make it a historic fact, sorry.

(Interesting side note: it seems that, after googling, that Hatsumi, Hoban and Hayes are all somewhat linked together, which makes all three even less credible. Of course, they may be skilled martial artists, but that, certainly, doesn't make them skilled historians. Yes, we all know they're teaching some old, ancient, super secret technique, but so's everybody else who's trying to sell something.)

Ninjutsu:
Ninjutsu is the "art of stealth", pure and simple, and NOT a martial art. It's somewhat of a martial art today, however, I tend to question the authenticy of many of those "ninjutsu" practises these days (usually it's karate or aikido in black suits). And well, how many teachers teach actual ninjutsu anyway? None. Or is anyone in a "ninjutsu" dojo learning skills like: camouflage, infiltration, espionage, wilderness survival, chemistry, first aid, etc? I think not. The unarmed fighting style of the shinobi is often referred to as "ninpo taijutsu" and is based upon fluidity of movement and adaptability. The art incorporates quick, devastating punches and nerve strikes designed to quickly incapacitate an opponent, as well as leg sweeps and evasion techniques. It's primarily made for the shinobi to escape not to kill, after all, a shinobi is primarily a spy and he has to escape to deliver what he found out to his master.

Ninja:
The correct term is, and stays, shinobi, coming from "shinobi no mono". "Ninja" is merely a different reading of the same kanji characters. Sometime in the Edo period someone, likely a kabuki writer, figured that "shinobi no mono" was just too long, so he called them "ninja" and it was a success.

The ninja-to:
That thing is, pure and simple, myth. If you ever get to Japan, go to the old Iga province, visit the Iga Ueno museum, you won't find any of those straight swords there (additionally, they don't appear in Japanese movies or TV series either, shinobi there always carry katana). The straight sword is a pretty stupid thing anyway. Let's say you're an infiltrator, out there to spy on your daimyo's enemy. Would you carry a weapon that would give away your true mission at once? A weapon even the most stupid servant girl would recognize? No, you'd blend in. You'd use disguises and work from there.

To call a shorter katana a "ninja-to" is utter nonsense. That'd be a wakizashi.

Black suits:
No shinobi ever wore black. Simple reason: black outlines you at night, the sky is dark blue, but not black. Common colours would have been dark blue, dark browns of maybe even greys. The black suit has its origin on the stages of bunraku and kabuki during the Edo period. The stage staff there wore (and still wears) black as a sign that they are "invisible" and are, in fact, staff and not part of the story. The audience knew (and still knows) that. Then, one day, a random writer had one big problem: he had to put a shinobi into a scene, but the shinobi had to be "invisible" in a way that the audience would understand it. And BINGO, the black suit was born. The Japanese audience understood the hint, but then, after 1854 Europeans and Americans began swarming the country. They saw black clothed shinobi on the stage and came to the conclusion: shinobi wear black (which gives the phrase "baka gaijin" a very strong support).

Shinobi and samurai:
First of, shinobi were not a caste by themselves. They were no independant social class. Secondly, the most famous shinobi were all samurai. Hattori Hanzo and Yagyu Juubei both were responsible for the Old Badger's espionage and secret service. Juubei disappeared for a long time while under Ieyasu's orders, what he did during that time is unknown, but it is likely that it had to do with Ieyasu's plots and plans. Both Hanzo and Juubei also held the rank of hatamoto to Ieyasu. Now, in order to be hatamoto you have to be samurai. It's more than just likely that the actual operatives in the field were samurai. Given the situation of commoners during the sengoku period and later it is extremely unlikely that several villages would have been able to train some super secret warriors without ANYONE noticing. Additionally, once such a village would exist it would already be part of a han and as such under samurai control, so samurai would definitely know about it and, logically, be part of it. And frankly, the normal commoner in feudal Japan had different problems than maintaining a super secret technique (please don't tell me that farmers in the Iga mountains had time for practising super secret fighting techniques after a hard day's work in the fields and forests).

Now, let's say you're a damiyo, who are you going to send on a critical mission? Simple. You're going to send one of your trusted samurai, preferably of hatamoto rank, who has certain knowledge in the more shady trades of war. Just like you're going to put an expert in siege warfare in charge of a siege of any random castle.

Additionally, doing some "N" work doesn't make one an "N". Let's say, the maid of lord Matsudaira's daughter is passing one of my hatamoto in peasant disguise some notes. Well, she's certainly doing "N" work with that, but she's not an "N" because of it.

Speaking of hatamoto in peasant disguise: watch Kurosawa's "Kagemusha", there are three perfectly represented shinobi in it.

Samurai were supposed to follow bushido, but that doesn't mean that they actually followed it (people are supposed to follow the law, but do they?). Also note that bushido as we know it today (as defined by the Hagakure and other similar works) did not come around until the Edo period. There it was used as a tool by the bakufu to keep control over the samurai. After all, the last thing the Tokugawa needed was another upstart challenging them (and Ieyasu had experience with such upstarts, he knew how dangerous they could be, after all, he had fought with and against one for a while, Toyotomi Hideyoshi). Daimyo and lower ranking samurai during the sengoku period certainly did NOT follow bushido. Countless of battle accounts prove that easily. Sieges were won with treachery and bribe, leaders were attacked by snipers (like Ii Naomasa at Sekigahara), Ieyasu simply bought several of Ishida's supporters at Sekigahara, Akechi Mitsuhide turned his coat and killed Oda Nobunaga, etc etc etc.

Shinobi are not so "far far away" from the samurai as many may believe. Especially not when you consider pure historic facts and look at the civil wars before the Tokugawa bakufu. The image of the samurai that we have today is based mainly (or even solely?) on the Edo period and the romantic image drawn by stories like "Chuushingura" (which is, however, an extremely bad story about bushido, though a very good story about revenge, which was sadly twisted and turned from a completely anti-government story to a pro-emperor and heavy nationalist piece of crap during the Meiji, Taisho and early Showa eras). You can apply the same on the European knight if you want, the pattern is the same.

Samurai, additionally, didn't only "train the sword" while "ninja trained everything". Samurai learned many different arts. The sword was only one part and became really important only in the Edo period. Before that the primary weapon on the battlefield was... the spear. Before that it was bow and arrow. And with the appearance of firearms they, too, gained a lot of importance (rifle units were vital for the battles, and honours granted to successful rifle units and riflemen were high, only topped by those taking a head in individual combat). The samurai only using the sword, or the sword being the "soul of the samurai" is really a, somewhat, modern myth. A battle ready samurai was supposed to know how to: fence (sword and spear), fight unarmed, ride, shoot and hit with bow (or even a teppo), etc. Add to that they also had to govern the lands, and that some of them were, in fact, shinobi, etc etc etc.

Additionally, no matter what anyone claims these days: shinobi don't exist anymore. Samurai don't exist anymore. The Meiji Restoration took care of that with its Class Abolishment Act and that Sword Abolishment Act. People who claim that shinobi or samurai still exist or that they are teaching some super secret art really only liars who're trying to sell something (I have yet to see someone claiming this NOT being a teach of some sort of "ninjutsu"). Also, saying that "ninja training is different than samurai trainig" is rather redundant, because... how would anyone of us really know? What's the actual historic fact this statement is based upon anyway? Hearsay? Ramblings of a "ninjutsu" teacher? Doesn't rank as credible source in my book. If the chief historian of the Iga "N" museum says so, fine. If the head researcher of the faculty of Japanese history at the Hosei or Waseda says so, fine. If a Japanese HISTORIAN (yes, I put emphasize on this on purpose) says so, fine (so far those I know haven't), but some random martial arts teacher? You gotta be kidding. Who're you're going to believe on the, let's say, Napoleonic Wars, a fencing or riding instructor or an actual historian who's been digging into this stuff for his whole life? Surely, an instructor may have a certain knowledge (may, there's no guarantee that he actually knows anything of value, as seen in the case of Stephen Hayes), but it's not really comparable to that of a specialzed historian.

BTW, if you ever get to Japan:
The Iga Ninja Museum is located in Ueno Park, a 5-10 minute walk north of Ueno-shi Station.
Admission Fee:
Museum: 700 Yen
Show: 200 Yen
Museum Opening Hours:
Daily 9:00 to 17:00, except from December 29 through January 1.
Show Times:
Every hour from 11:00 to 15:00.
March-November: Daily except Tuesdays.
December-February: Only on weekends and national holidays.


Oh yes, before I forget... "N" weren't as "über" as everyone thinks. During the Shimabara Rebellion shinobi of the Tokugawa bakufu failed to infiltrate the rebel camp... The simple reason for this was that they didn't manage to reproduce the local dialect properly... (and these "N" were also samurai).


You know, I really hate making my first post such a huge rant, but oh well... I would have done so sooner or later anyway.

[Muscleking131]

Yeah wall of text to be sure. Not a bad thing this time since it was full of usefull info, except that part about not saying ninja. Theres nothing wrong with ninja, get over it pal.

[Sykoi]

I have to agree with Arakawa, when people say "ninja" they think of a guy dressed in all black latex dancing around throwing "ninja stars"... Kind of sad.
On topic again: Nice post, Arakawa, and welcome to the forums :)

[Tenshin]

Wow, what a post! Arakawa, you may be the vigor that this forum needs right now. What a great post, very insightful... Where do you get your info? I hope to read more from you. Welcome to the forums!

[Delerium]

I'm confused. I thought there was one in iga-ueno near osaka but you're saying there is one near ueno park? I went to the zoo there and all i saw was bums, no ninjas......unless they were in disguise. haha

[Tenshin]

you don't see ninjas, silly!

[Delerium]

Yeah i guess they would not have a very long career if they were wearing hunter's orange. However, I think there should be a beverly hills ninja in this game. Maybe controlled by one of the devs. He would just run around in his white gi breaking stuff saying "holy shnikeys"! Although historically inaccurate, it would be funny. A monkey ninja would be funny too. I think pvp has to be where the good guy has to stand in a circle and everyone fights him one at a time instead of rushing him. Samurai movies show us how history really was lol.

[Zorbon]

"thank god for my shortsword"

[Adaox]

Isn't that hard to find info, just spend time enough
Info about samurai and shinobi can be found here
http://www.samurai-archives.com/
and here
http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

Yet it may have some mistakes, the Wikipedia is also a prety good source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
specialy when your looking for wepons info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_swords
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts_weapons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m%C3%AAl%C3%A9e_weapons

[BigNinjaPimp]

very nice post arwakawa.

[Arakawa Nobuaki]

It's kind of funny. I dared to click one of those Google ads and look what popped up:

“You’re About To Learn Secrets That Most People Will Never Know About Aikido Training...”

Watch and Learn...

• The SECRET training techniques that only a SELECT FEW of Morihei Ueshiba's students ever learned. These techniques have been kept secret for decades...

• A Nage-Waza (throwing technique) so dangerous that most insiders won't share it with anyone outside of our inner circle... It is that controversial

• How to use a "Iriminage" (body throw) that is so dangerous that your attacker or opponent will have nightmares for the next decade after being humiliated by you with this insider technique...

• The top Aikido pressure points techniques... If used properly will insure your opponent drops to his knee's within 3 seconds. (He will start crying after 5 seconds.)

• Underground Aikido weapon's defense secrets that will insure you become a weapon's master faster then you ever dreamed possible...

• Plus much, much more...

Yikes! This reminds me of all the BS that is spread by the majority of the selfproclaimed "ninjutsu" masters these days. Of course, everything in it is super secret, and super dangerous, otherwise it wouldn't sell. And people love this ****, no matter how stupid it is. Who else has a huge alarm going "BS! BS! BS!"?

Don't get me wrong. Hayes and his folks may certainly be good martial artists, BUT... they are not historians. I've actually read one of his books and after a couple of pages into his rants about the history of shinobi I was close to banging my head against a wall. He claimed that shinobi were inferior to the samurai in status, were their own class ("How to ignore the historic facts in one easy step"), dressed black, etc. It was bad, really bad. His wife isn't really much better. According to her, as I said, there are female "N" even today and female "N" were recruited like geisha, which is a rather illfated logic anyway, if the girl is indebted to me, because I brought her up, paid for everything, etc, then it is even more likely that she will work for someone else, who actually pays her so that she can get out of the contract with me. Additionally, why would I recruit someone from the outside, someone I don't know, have no background information about, to be one of my spies? The risk of snatching a double-agent is extremely high that way.

But let's look at it completely logic. I give you two options and you decide which one is the more likely one, from a logic and historical point of view:

Option 1:
There's a village of peasants in Iga, hidden in the mountains. For generations these peasants have been practicing a super secret fighting technique and for centuries nobody, including their samurai from their daimyo down to the one responsible for their village, has found out about it. Of course, despite being farmers, fishermen, woodworkers, etc, and having to feed their families, they have time to keep this technique going and are the most "l33t" in all of Japan.

Option 2:
Everything's allowed in love and war. Date Masamune has all his specialists for warfare. He has his specialists for muskets, for cavalry tactics, for siege warfare, and even someone for diplomacy, not to mention that he has a clever samurai employed who knows all the different mon and who uses them (very important actually, since several mon are used by more than one family, you don't want to shoot your allies in a battle). And now comes the killer... Since Date Masamune is a clever guy, he wants to know what his fellow daimyo are doing. For this, he also has a specialist among his retainers. However, he's not the only daimyo with such an idea, the Old Badger (Ieyasu), has a similar idea, Oda Nobunaga regularly employs spies to find out what's going on in the country.

Now, which one, looking at it completely logic, is the most likely?

Espionage is as old as warfare. Reconaissance is one of the most important things on a battlefield. Robert E. Lee ran into Gettysburg, blind, without knowing the moves of the Union army, because his cavalry was some place else. The Union troops, though, knew about it, because their scouts were in place. Both, Union and Confederate cavalry scouts often dressed up as civilians when scouting enemy terrain. In WW2, the British ran a large operation to capture an Enigma (and they succeeded) and, together with the Norwegians, they foiled the production of Heavy Water by the Germans. In Germany, during the Cold War, a spy from East Germany (Markus Wolf) managed to infiltrate the highest ranks of the government (it took until the end of the Cold War to figure out who he really was). None of these spies and scouts ran around with a uniform or sign that gave him away on the first glance.

There's also a very nice (and not so recent) movie taking place in WW2, where German paratroopers dress up as soldiers from the "Free Poland" brigade, land in the UK to kill Churchill and fool everyone, villagers, US officers, etc. They are found out eventually, when one of them tries to rescue a child, is killed and people see that he's wearing a German uniform underneath the Allied camo.

Anyway...

The biggest problem with the claim that there are modern "N" even today is quite simple. The last recorded "N" activity was during the time when Perry and his Black Ships were in Edo Bay (espionage and infiltration to gain more knowledge about those strange guys on those Black Ships). However, by that time the "N" have already been in decline for some 200+ years, just like the regular samurai. No wars to fight, no large scale operations, no missions under fire, no way to really sharpen their skills. With the end of the Sengoku Jidai and the beginning of the Edo Jida and the Tokugawa rule those, who followed the Tokugawa, turned into members of the secret police. Instead of heroically infiltrating a castle and sabotaging the gate so that the army could breach the defenses, they now had to spy on merchants, other samurai, innkeepers, etc. And, honestly, a few simple incidents prove that the "N" of the Edo Jidai were really not "über".

Take the 47 Ronin. Nobody figured that they were up to something. Nobody, not even the famed Igo and Koga "N" working for the Tokugawa. The 47 struck at their target (clearly using "N" tactics and strategies), succeeded and everyone was surprised (and the Inu Shogun was most likely wetting his pants because of fear).

Or take the events prior to the Boshin War, the way the alliance between the Satsuma and Choshu was negotiated. Nobody was there to do anything about it. Clearly, the Tokugawa would have sent their "überl33t" "N" to deal with those traitors... if the "N" would have been "überl33t", which they were not. The Satsuma and Choshu joined forces. Good night, Tokugawa.

The Iga "N" museum is in Ueno Park, not far from Ueno-shi Station. I always mess up the addresses, though (don't ask me any addresses, I have a bad memory for those, I know how to get there, though, that's easy, but don't ask me the street address). http://www.iganinja.jp/ (careful, some of the articles on their site are very humoristic and often even make fun of the Hollywood-myth "N" (like their "Virtual Ninja Experience", you click around a bit and end up with "Now you are a fully-fledged ninja. You have experienced the world of the Iga-ryu ninja, and have learnt their means of survival")).

And now, I'll tell you a story.

A couple of years ago, I was roleplaying in a Star Wars game. Now, there was this kid (one of those who give Americans a bad reputation) and, one day he claimed that he was a ninja. That was the moment when I wanted to wipe the floor with him. But no, it didn't stop there. Some time later he claimed to be a swordmaster. At that moment, I wanted to kill him. And then, even more time passed, he said that he had been learning "ninjutsu" for 3 years (most likely at "Billy-Bob's and John-Boy's karate, kendo, aikido, judo and ninjutsu dojo" somewhere in Redneck city). That was the moment when I wanted to castrate him in order to prevent his stupidity from being spread into future generations..

[Takeshikun]

Actually, I heard that the actual origin of the ninja was far beyond the common expression of the now steryotypical (spelling?) version we now accept today. They had more humble beginnings with the training of combat coming around years afterward. For lack of a better term, the original (with all due respect) were tree huggers! But not the kind we have today, more like druids...Does that make any sense? I saw that on the History Channel so I'm kind of just replaying what I heard. Am I wrong though? Whose to say that Ninja couldn't have been monkish like people before the whole special assasin thing? Either way, Ninjas are still the coolest warriors of all time

[Delerium]

The Iga "N" museum is in Ueno Park, not far from Ueno-shi Station. I always mess up the addresses, though (don't ask me any addresses, I have a bad memory for those, I know how to get there, though, that's easy, but don't ask me the street address). http://www.iganinja.jp/

I was still confused so I dared to go to that website. It states on the homepage that it is in the mie prefecture which is way south of tokyo. They get confused all the time. Perhaps some of the bums I saw were ninjas in disguise.


http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4350.html

Regardless, the website is really lame. But good info none the less. ;)

[Arakawa Nobuaki]

Actually, I heard that the actual origin of the ninja was far beyond the common expression of the now steryotypical (spelling?) version we now accept today. They had more humble beginnings with the training of combat coming around years afterward. For lack of a better term, the original (with all due respect) were tree huggers! But not the kind we have today, more like druids...Does that make any sense? I saw that on the History Channel so I'm kind of just replaying what I heard. Am I wrong though? Whose to say that Ninja couldn't have been monkish like people before the whole special assasin thing? Either way, Ninjas are still the coolest warriors of all time
There was a certain prince from the imperial court who was known for certain... "specialized" approaches to certain problems.

Taking a modern comparison, I'd say we can compare "N" to units like the SAS or GSG9 or KSK used in modern warfare. And a KSK or an SAS trooper, they look just the same as any other soldier when in their normal uniforms. Same would be applied for any "N" in normal duty of his liege lord. I mean, it makes sense. If you have a special unit, what will you do? Make sure everyone recognizes them at once, can identify them and maybe strike against them? Or will you make sure they blend into your normal army?

[Letum]

rather than using SAS and navy SEALs as ur "modern ninjas" try Spetsnaz GRU and even more Osnaz, read and be enlighted.. or w/e i dun care.

these ppl have been trained from their birth to kill the enemys of Russia. whether the enemys r an real threat or not, that is not of their concern.

I can become SAS or navy SEALs member, all i need to do is train enough and outwise the authority..

an potential spetsnaz member was given to army because their mother would rather buy dope to herself than food to her son. i mean none of u have even mentioned anything about them, this is how well they operate.

there is probably even more secretive special forces, but this far spetsnaz are the closest thing to "modern ninja" i have found

[Arakawa Nobuaki]

SAS, SEALs, KSK, whatever, they're the same type of unit as the Russian Spetznaz. I don't see much difference there. They're all special forces used for the hairy missions that require special training and equipment. The German KSK, for example, blend in normally into the Germany army, you wouldn't realize that a German soldiers is a KSK soldiers just by looking at his normal duty uniform (same goes for units like the GSG9). SAS does the same. SEALs may not be a good example, since they're not as secretive as the KSK or SAS.

[Letum]

GSG9 is an counter terrorism group and with their supposed 5 shots in their 30 years of existance (1500 missions), i dont know why, but i feel like this group isnt into assassinations..

US Navy SEALs, match up pretty well with their expertise and training, but they arent on market.

the so called Ninjas covered the dark side.. espionage, assassinations, kidnaps, u name it.

"Spetsnaz brigade consists of three to five Spetsnaz battalions, a signals company, support units, and a headquarters company containing highly skilled professional soldiers responsible for carrying out assassinations, kidnappings, and contact with agents in the enemy rear area." (too tired to write myself so quote from wikipedia)

it has been reported that they sell training to terrorists who can afford it aswell.

[Zorbon]

special forces? blah, they can't stand up to http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/GITS-SS05.jpg
section 9

[Arakawa Nobuaki]

Well Letum. "N" did all that because, well, they were the pros and pretty much the only unit ready for it (compare it with early military aviation, the first guys there flew anything and everything from recon to "bombing" runs). The Old Badger (aka Ieyasu) had his specialists for anything, ranging from siege warfare to cavalry, muskets, and, of course, clandestine operations. It's just like that today. Every military has those.

Of course today's military has a more distinct separation. But that's only logic, there's hundreds of years of evolution in military procedures.

Not every "N" had to do with assassinations. In fact, assassinations weren't their main job anyway. Tokugawa Ieyasu, for example, used them for recon, infiltration and sabotage (Why do you think did Ieyasu win Sekigahara? Why did the leaders of thousands of soldiers of the Western Army either not move or attack their allies? Because the Old Badger had his contacts with them, bribed them, etc, and how do you get in contact with an enemy daimyo? Easy... you send a specialist for such an operation, and that brings in Ieyasu' Iga and Koga men). Assassinations did happen, but those weren't the primary part of the job description. It's a somewhat hyped thing that mainly comes from crappy Western movies and morons who write books about something they obviously lack any understanding of (like Stephen Hayes). Most of the recorded exploits (there aren't many, actually, it's just like with modern special forces, you keep the stuff secret from the public) show us recon behind enemy lines, infiltration of castles, sabotage of castle defenses, etc. Missions vital for a successful military campaign. Assassinating an enemy daimyo didn't mean that there wouldn't be a war anyway (take Oda Nobunaga, murdered by his own general, did the Sengoku Jidai end? Nope, certainly not. One of the Uesugi was, possibly, assassinated by an "N", did the wars end? No. Did the Uesugi just disappear? Nope. And the problem with this account is: there are conflicting sources. We can assume that an "N" actually killed him. But we can also assume that he died of a natural cause.) And then you had to get close to that daimyo and that was certainly not easy. Kidnapping, insignificant. No "N" could possibly dream of kidnapping someone of power (they might do so in anime and manga, but those are certainly not good sources for actual research). These people were just too well protected.

SAS has been doing assassinations as well. They got fire from the left wing for executing several islamic terrorists when they freed an embassy some time in the 80s.

Additionally, I'd say that assassinations, espionage, etc, aren't the "dark side" (that's why samurai looked down on "N", right?) That's another myth coined by wannabe experts such as Hayes. Espionage, assassinations, sabotage, you name it, are part of any successful military campaign at any time in the history of warfare across the globe. And well, we're talking about warfare here. The only "dark side" would be attacking civilians. But military attacks on military targets during a military campaign, no matter how this assault is done, are pretty much what you can expect during a war.

And "N" weren't really on the market either, since they were, well, samurai (after all, nobody else in feudal Japan had the right combat training and education, or... the time to get such training; peasants were too busy with working and paying taxes). And as such they served a liege lord. Most famous examples are the Hattori and Yagyu families who served the Old Badger. The Iga and Koga clans didn't sell their knowledge to enemies of the Tokugawa. Not only because they were in employment with the Shogun, no, they also owed Ieyasu quite a lot. He had protected many of them in the past. Additionally, the Hattori and Yagyu were both hatamoto to the Tokugawa. And you don't become hatamoto by not being absolutely trustworthy.

Any story of super assassins that can be hired in Iga... forget it. Just myths. Stories that sell well as an action packed anime or manga. There's nothing to back those up.

BTW, by naming the GSG9 I was referring to the fact that they do blend into the Bundesgrenzschutz easily. You can talk to a BGS officer in Germany and you wouldn't know whether he's GSG9 or just regular BGS. Same applies for SAS members. It's save to assume that, for example, Ieyasu's "N"s were like that in Edo castle. They blend in, can't be separated from the rest of the crowd. In Edo castle, how would anyone know whether the low ranking samurai who had just brought in a message from a Tokugawa alley as courier was not an "N"? Easy answer, no one, except those responsible for the "N" operations, would know, and those guys wouldn't tell anyone except... the Tokugawa shogun.

And, uh... I don't hold wikipedia in a high regard for actual research, since anyone can change things there (have you ever read the article they had about kunoichi? not one single fact in it, just myths and BS from extremely doubtful sources (as in... people who sell "modern" nin-jutsu, someone who tries to sell some "super mythical ninja technique" is hardly a decent source for actual historic facts.) As a matter of fact, wikipedia is not accepted at my university as a source for papers one has to write.

[Letum]

when i say dark side (in the context i used it before) then its normally understood as things that arent meant to see sunlight, morally/ethically wrong or actions not so approved by public.

i said spetsnaz because they fit the "ninja slot" the most, while the others said might not have any connection to them except for fierce training.

spetsnaz use "normal military clothes", even civilian clothes and successfully fool everyone of their spetsnazness, how ninja is that?
dude.. Its normal to use "disguise" amongst special forces.

i didnt say every ninja had to do with assassinations
i didnt say anythin about super ninjas
i didnt say anything about other, this days, special troops not assassinating

u r writing about completely irrelevant things..

(there r other sources which confirm spetsnaz doing shady things)