somthing to take into accout when making a character

[xi ryu]

i was reading the RP forums and started browsing over characters, kinda funny

not trying to be mean but...

in the 16th century, your average japaneese guy was barely, BARELY 4 foot 9 inches

you must realize what sort of effect this had on their culture, let me explain

japaneese katana (longsword)
blade length 3 feet
handle length 10-12 inches
total length 4 feet
THE SWORD WAS AS TALL AS THE WARRIOR
if you imagine a REAL longsword made for YOU it would be as tall if not taller than you are, can you imagine how heavy it would be, lemme give u a hint 50-90 lbs
this is why the katana was curved, so the 4'9" guy could draw it without having to take it off his body and unsheathe it.



japaneese armor (complete samurai battle set) it might be a little light.

materials used
leather (30lbs)
rope(3lbs)
metal (20-40lbs)
this is a heavy load for a short guy (trust me, i'm 17 and 5'2'')

now imagine all the cloth padding they wear under this armor, about 15 lbs of it.

do you think it got hot? especailly in japans summer months, now imagine your self 4 feet tall, with 100lbs of cloth, wood, and steel on your body, your carrying a 8 foot tall spear (which is twice as tall as you are) and your trying to kill as many people as you can, as fast as you can


edit: one thing i forgot, most of you know, few of you realise... in my name for example, Xi Ryu...
Xi=LAST NAME
Ryu=FIRST NAME

i hope this helps you see a little more into japaneese culture/battles/ceilings/life/martial arts.


sorry if i offended anyone.

[ToshiMaru]

hehehehehe, this also reminds me that most asian people are unfortunately pretty short. around 4 ft to 5 ft. But hey, nobody knows the truth. There are stories of ancient japanese ppl as tall as Yao Ming. Plus, its not like everyone was that short. There were at least a few hundred around 6ft tall.

SPONGEBOB: "imaaginatiiiiiioooooooooonnnnnnnnn" :p

[nobody4422]

As far as the short stature goes. Its my understanding that such a condition is primarily caused by malnutrition. If this is true then of course the average peasant is going to be pretty short. But richer people and families that are able to pay for more and better quality food, such as samurai, rich merchant families, political leaders, etc..., would most liekly be significantly taller, bigger, and stronger.

I could be wrong though.

Its also my understanding that at least part of the reason why a Katana was curved was to make a more efficient cutting surface for slashing attacks. Pretty much same reason why a gillotine (SP) has a slant blade in stead of a straight one. The draw part makes sense too, and is proably another reason.

I think it might also be relavent to note that not everyone in feudal Japan was a Samurai. Not even everyone who fought in battle was a samurai. Most people were simple farmers simply trying to eek out a meger existance during a higly unstable time of war and unrest. These people were often malnourished, rarely had decent weapons, had little combat experience and training, and only basic fighting skills.

Of course everyone want to bee one of the elite, the few, but I think it might be nice if people make their stories based from a point of view of the peseantry.

[ShininShado]

Hmmm, that is interesting, something else I thought about is that I would believe that everyone in Feudal Japan probably had brown or black color to their eyes. Without European influence and genes, which didn't happen much until the late 16th Century, the eye color would be basic.

Xi Ryu, you said that armor had 30 LBs of wood, I am wondering what parts were made of wood, everything I've read said that armor was made of either metal or leather or a combination of both, sometimes bearskin. The only reason I ask this is because I read several articles about Feudal Japanese armor and the ones I read said never of wood, if wood was used I'd like to know how, thanks. :scratchch I might be wrong.

[xi ryu]

i'ma answer ur ALL your questions/comments..

toshimaru,
you are correct, some were tall, but you gotta remember, in a fight the bigger you are, the easier you are to hit, or knock off balance, theese tall people were usually bad fighters.

nobody4422
the height part, you have it backwards, Tall people are created by chemicals in food i.e. growth hormones
back when the food was all natural, they stayed regular height, today we are mutated to be taller.

you are right with the katana, but it was ORIGINALLY curved to make it easier to draw, they later found out that it made a good cutting surface

i agree with your "not every one is a samurai" most were farmers that fought with yari (spears) samurai were elite units that fought for shoguns/daimyos

ShininShado
the armor i am referring to was earlier samurai armor, (had thick hard wood plates instead of steel) but in this time perod of japan (16th century) the armor was primarrily steel, fashioned in rectangular plates, or dragon scales styles. but theese still had wood plates either under them or on top of the steel plates (it helped get their enemies sword stuck in the armor so that they were easier to kill) thank you for correcting me, the article you are referring to probably meant never mainly out of wood.

[Waffa]

A tall guy has manny advantages over a short guy he has a longer reach the short guy has to close the gap. Tall people are ushally faster than shorrt ppl they have longer strides. If a tall guy and a short guy are fighting with swords the short guy will have more openings than a tall guy. Yes the short guy will be able to go for the tall guys legs but if any of you have ever trianed in fencing or anyother sword play youll know you can move your legs alot quicker than your body also if the short guy does go for his legs hed probaly get hit in the head or neck.

[xi ryu]

A tall guy has manny advantages over a short guy he has a longer reach the short guy has to close the gap. Tall people are ushally faster than shorrt ppl they have longer strides. If a tall guy and a short guy are fighting with swords the short guy will have more openings than a tall guy. Yes the short guy will be able to go for the tall guys legs but if any of you have ever trianed in fencing or anyother sword play youll know you can move your legs alot quicker than your body also if the short guy does go for his legs hed probaly get hit in the head or neck.


first off, arm length has nothing to do with how tall or short you are (i'm short, and i have the longest arms in my dojo)

second, have you ever seen a japaneese guy run? most likely, they are twice as fast as any tall guy becasue they have a low center of gravity, i play soccer with some japaneese people and they can really book it.
third, no matter what type of fighting, the better trained will win, the advantage goes to the smallest guy because he is shorter and harder to hit, the short guy has LESS openings because he is the same size as the sword, the tall guy is easy to knock off balance, has many openings, moves slower because his center of movement is longer which requires more time to move.

third, some of the best bad asses in martial arts are VERY short.

lastly, i study traditional japaneese budo (cant say which ones, read the "does anybody study traditional japanese budo?" thread in "the katana")

no offence but, please get rid of your western mind set, AMERICANS ARE NOT THE BEST PEOPLE ON EARTH :eek: trust me, i am one.

yes america is a good country which i love, but we are arrogant, look what happend to lieutenant colonel Custer, he was arrogant too.

[ShininShado]

i'ma answer ur ALL your questions/comments.. ShininShado
the armor i am referring to was earlier samurai armor, (had thick hard wood plates instead of steel) but in this time perod of japan (16th century) the armor was primarrily steel, fashioned in rectangular plates, or dragon scales styles. but theese still had wood plates either under them or on top of the steel plates (it helped get their enemies sword stuck in the armor so that they were easier to kill) thank you for correcting me, the article you are referring to probably meant never mainly out of wood.

I didn't mean to correct you, but before I researched the topic I thought at least some of the samurai armor was wood. I think what looks like wood sometimes is actually worked or dyed leather. Just have never seen anything suggest armor was made of wood. This site explains what I'm talking about -
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
One thing that needs to be addressed first is probably my biggest button: Japanese armour was never made of wood or bamboo. It was either leather, steel, or a combination of the two. Don’t even ask me.

Quote about the size of "most" Japanese warriors, somewhat valid point about the height I think you brought up, found on http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

Assuming we can somehow control for these attributes, we could match combatants with some equality. It would not be unrealistic to believe on a whole that neither was likely decisively stronger or faster than the other. Although, we can’t discount physiology as a factor and this would certainly be a reasonable advantage for the European (16th century samurai armor examples are sized for men around 5’3”-5’5”, while European armor from the same period and earlier would fit men ranging from just under 6’ to about 6’5”). Although, other evidence suggests average European heights in the 16th century were just above 5 feet.

[KazeKuroi]

Anyways.. Mayz is supposed to be an oddity, being albino, and talll, she's supposed to stand out like a soar thumb, but she covers it all.
The average height of a male is bout 5'2" average for a female was 4'8". The ones that where tall where only Africans, Celts, and Vickings... We get our height today because of the growth hormones injected into our meat to feed our population.

[ToshiMaru]

xi ryu
Tall people are created by chemicals in food i.e. growth hormones
back when the food was all natural, they stayed regular height, today we are mutated to be taller.

KazeKuroi
We get our height today because of the growth hormones injected into our meat to feed our population.

------LOL ROFL :-P ------

[Waffa]

Im not american.
Tall ppl ushally do have longer arms and legs than short ppl thats why thier tall.
Just becuase you have a low center of gravity dosent mean your going to be fast to be fast you have to train alot it dosent matter weather your tall or short but a tall guy can ushally take bigger steps than a short guy becuase his leggs are longer. Its really easy for anyone short or tall to have really good balance you only have to train like one or two days a week for like a year. Two ppl both traind the same one tall one short the tall guy would have the advantage.

Are thier any tall ppl at your dojo, how tall are you?

[xi ryu]

i agree with that, whoever is better trained will always win the fight. i'm saying from expirience, the shorter guy has the advantage.

yes the tall guy has longer arms, but against me, we have the same arm length. so now it comes down to speed, not running speed, if anyone is running, they are running away and it is too late :D

i'm saying reaction speed, not reaction time, reaction speed the speed at which you body does what you tell it to, if your tendons are shorter bacause you are shorter, you have a higher reaction speed.

and it is a given, the shorter guy has better balance, always will. yes you can train to have good balance but, the short guy had good balance before he started, now its even better, the tall guy had normal balance when he started, now he has good balance.

i am 5'9'' (almost the shortest in the dojo) the tallest is about 6'8'' or 6'10''

i guess it would be an interesting fight, but i'd bet on the short guy, assuming they are identically trained.

[KazeKuroi]

Actually running is a nifty technique when there is alot of guys around...
the faster ones will catch up first as the slower ones will fall behind.
That will give you time to kill one on one for a moment.

And the tall girl has the best kicks. =p Due to their natural flexability in thier hips and the length in their legs.

[xi ryu]

better hope your not running from anyone with thrown weapons such as daggers, darts, or shurikens (which was almost everybody)

[KazeKuroi]

Samurai's or Police usually don't have small throwing objects

[xi ryu]

Samurai's or Police usually don't have small throwing objects


i study a samurai sword style and my shinken (liveblade) has 4 daggers in the saya (sheathe)

and NO its not a fake sword made for collectors, this is a REAL samurai sword made for the style i learn.

[KazeKuroi]

Ninja's had Katana's too.

[xi ryu]

well, sort of, yes they are called katanas, but katana just means longsword, the ninja katana was a straight blade with 1 edge, and it was usually shorter (only about 2 feet long)

[Slots]

armlength or height has nothing to do with prowess in combat... if the blades are the same length then you can always go for the wrists to disable your opponent and finish them off... trust me in fencing its all about keeping distance and part of that is know how far away the close part of the body you can hit is...

heh just a little input...

[KazeKuroi]

well, sort of, yes they are called katanas, but katana just means longsword, the ninja katana was a straight blade with 1 edge, and it was usually shorter (only about 2 feet long)


Or the longsword was actually... "DAITO - long sword (over 24 inches)"
Or "TACHI - long sword worn with cutting-edge down"
cause a katana is... "KATANA - sword worn in the obi, cutting edge up"


This site (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/glossry.htm) helps alot

Can be rather confusing can't it?

[Akatsuki]

When talking about height, you don't take into consideration natural skill as well - a taller guy could have been born to fight swords and picks everything up very quickly. It all depends on the person. Secondly, it doesn't matter the length of the tendons so much as it does how strong and responsive and well-trained they are.

[TheSporkedOne]

I believe that the max height to each character should be completely random, thus making the reaaaaally tall people as rare as they would have been in feudal japan. the same could work for skin color.

[ShininShado]

That's not a bad idea. As far as height being an advantage or disadvantage, I think it was on an idividual basis wether it was a good or bad thing for the fighter and their fighting style.

[Slots]

so it would be like a say a dice roll ... of say .. some odd number of dice and you total it up so that it comes out to a certain number

this number could be say ... centimeters or something so like .... it could total up to a between say ... 1.6 meters to 2 meters

it would be complicated to think through but it could work...

[Gryph]

2 meters is very, very tall... have you seen old Samurai armor? It looks like it is designed for a 12 year old boy. Between 150 and 170 cm is about right; someone with a hight of 180cm would be quite tall, and 190 would be gigantic.

EDIT: I think that hight should have no influence on character statistics. That would be an encouragement for people to seek hight based on powergaming, not RP.

[Sicarius]

height should affect your characters stats, the larger the character, the larger target, plus the more cumbersome they are, but they can also pack more muscle and endurance onto their build, a smaller character wont be able to pack on as much muscle, but they will be faster. We should be able to choose basic body-builds (internally--muscular wise), this would both increase realism and the depth of character customization.

[xi ryu]

height should affect your characters stats, the larger the character, the larger target, plus the more cumbersome they are, but they can also pack more muscle and endurance onto their build, a smaller character wont be able to pack on as much muscle, but they will be faster. We should be able to choose basic body-builds (internally--muscular wise), this would both increase realism and the depth of character customization.


THANK GOD!!!!!

at least ONE person got the point of what i was trying to say

bless you man.

[ShininShado]

I still think that the stats of your character could be done in a way by adding either muscles or lankiness to a character. My character is a stout person, with a huge chest and arms, he'd hit like a mack truck but couldn't dodge well and probably wouldn't run that fast, or be able to jump very high.

[Abc]

Well, we are talking about believability tied into a game. Everyone has a different opinion of what is real and what isn't. That is the pitfall of many games (MMO or not). So all a developer of a game can do is pick the most popular and simplest way to make it work.

So if alot of people get caught up on an aspect of a game that the majority suddenly deem unrealistic they start putting down the game as a whole and start sending waves of hate mail.

But I get what yall are saying.

Shira

[Trin]

Well, we are talking about believability tied into a game. Everyone has a different opinion of what is real and what isn't. That is the pitfall of many games (MMO or not). So all a developer of a game can do is pick the most popular and simplest way to make it work.

So if alot of people get caught up on an aspect of a game that the majority suddenly deem unrealistic they start putting down the game as a whole and start sending waves of hate mail.

But I get what yall are saying.

Shira

On the flip side, if it's too realistic, it may cease to be fun. Fun and realism aren't always in agreement.

[ShininShado]

I personally think that the more realistic it is and the more mature the player, the funner the game will be overall. Some aspects of a realistically rendered environment might not be able to be appreciated by a player who lacks the appreciation for either the aspect or how it lends itself overall to gameplay. I think that a complete random set of height is a good idea.

[xi ryu]

So if alot of people get caught up on an aspect of a game that the majority suddenly deem unrealistic they start putting down the game as a whole and start sending waves of hate mail.


yes, but the majority isnt always right Ex. Star wars: Galaxies everyone said jedi was too hard to get, so the devs made it easier, now Everyone is a jedi and it made the game suck, therefore almost all of the original players left because it completely runined the whole star wars feel to it, and there is NO role play anymore.

just my thoughts.

[ShininShado]

I've seen that same thing happen to a bunch of games. Programmers and dev guys try to appease the masses, but end up totally messing up the good community or game that was already there. The community can evolve around major components of the game, changing one of those core components is almost always detremental.

[Sicarius]

You have to ballance realism with fantasy, too much of either will result in the failure of even the best looking game. I really hope the devs keep things in prospective and balance these two important factors.

[tsuyoikenshi]

Height is an advantage when talking melee combat. The increased armspan gives tremendous advantage in combat. If your opponent is 3 inches out of your reach, yet you are in his reach it means you need more skill to overcompensate for your lack of reach.

[Slots]

i belive i already said this ... but armlength has nothing to do with combat prowess. the length of the weapon and the knowledge of the user. if two people have the same length of katana then the person who knows how to disarm or bypass the blade will win. trust me i fenced a guy easily 2 feet taller than me (he was HUGE) i didnt lose because he was taller, i lost because he knew how to wield the weapon better than i did, not because he could reach farther...


if the two peopel fighting have the same length blade but one of them has longer arms that the other, nothing will matter since both people will be able to reach flesh at the same distance. the length of the blade or weapon.

[Yumi]

xi ryu some one has been feeding you to many cemimicals or some thing

have you ever seen Davinci's " Man" i think its called

all leangths are =
your arms and legs are =
the distance from you head to your feet is the same as
finger tip to finger tip

if your arms are longer than a tall person than means you are mutated and are a freak!! of nature* nuckel drager*
no offence


and for weapons

a No-dachi (spelling) was a Japanes Long sword was never worn, was almost always carryed in hand as it was to long to draw from the hip
its nick name was a Man killer rough traslated from a japanes friend of mine

the Katana and Wakazashi (spelling)where the 2 main sword carryed as they could both be drawn from the obi
the katana being 1 or so feet longer than the Wakazashi
the Wakazashi mainly being use for indoor or tight quarters fighting as it was smaler and more manuverable.
and the katana being use for open are combat and from Horse back along with the No-dachi.

As for sword lengths it all depends on the supplys at hand and the personal pref of the one haveing the sword made, there was no set size just an avrage
size.
just like peopel thinking that no femals in japan now or then have large chests or that asian men are not well endowed. there all misconseptions and its people who do not do reserce and spew info they belive to be true to people who aslo dont want to take the time to research them selfs some thing so they end up beliveing what the other person said and then passing it on and we as people know for a fact that that info changes as it is passed down from 1 person to another.
(yes that was a very long sentence and i said it as i typed and it was all one breath lol sorry i can talk fsat some times)

look below for reserched history

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

only samurai class was given the privilege of wearing/carrying a pair of dai-sho (i.e., katana and wakizashi) by the Shogunate laws in feudal Japan. However, when it comes to what kinds of swords that chonin (i.e., commoner) class was allowed to wear/carry, there still is a misconception widely shared. The most popular thus well accepted misconception of the kind is that "chonin class was not allowed to carry any swords at all." This misconception is very plausible because in popular Kurosawa movies and TV jidai-geki dramas, one does not see any chonin or peasants wearing a sword of any kind. What is very misleading is that the stereotypical portrayals of the non-samurai class citizens of feudal Japan in Edo period are in fact rather accurate. That is, historically non-samurai class citizens of feudal Japan in Edo period did not actually wear/carry any swords in their everyday life - regardless of what the laws, which many of them could not read, said.



Then why the notion that "chonin class was not allowed to carry any swords at all" is still a misconception when in fact that virtually no chonin class citizens wore/carried any swords in Edo period? To understand this, one must examine the sword control laws of feudal Japan for civilian class and actual cultural practice of the civilian class in the past.
the above is from

http://www2.una.edu/Takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Culture_files/Nihon_to_files/Chonin_sword.htm

for more go here
http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/weapons.htm#2

[Yumi]

also

as for sizes this is a nifty site that talks about

Knight vs Samurie

they talk about size body build and weapons and armor diffrences

might help clear some things up alitte

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

[Munglai]

i agree with that, whoever is better trained will always win the fight. i'm saying from expirience, the shorter guy has the advantage.

yes the tall guy has longer arms, but against me, we have the same arm length. so now it comes down to speed, not running speed, if anyone is running, they are running away and it is too late :D

i'm saying reaction speed, not reaction time, reaction speed the speed at which you body does what you tell it to, if your tendons are shorter bacause you are shorter, you have a higher reaction speed.

and it is a given, the shorter guy has better balance, always will. yes you can train to have good balance but, the short guy had good balance before he started, now its even better, the tall guy had normal balance when he started, now he has good balance.

i am 5'9'' (almost the shortest in the dojo) the tallest is about 6'8'' or 6'10''

i guess it would be an interesting fight, but i'd bet on the short guy, assuming they are identically trained.

The guy who teaches me kung fu is very tall, and he always beats me (obviously because he's a third dan), but I always manage to get at his legs when he kicks because they go in such a massive arc. That's another disadvantage of the tall folk.

[xi ryu]

xi ryu some one has been feeding you to many cemimicals or some thing

have you ever seen Davinci's " Man" i think its called

all leangths are =
your arms and legs are =
the distance from you head to your feet is the same as
finger tip to finger tip

if your arms are longer than a tall person than means you are mutated and are a freak!! of nature* nuckel drager*
no offence


ya, i can touch my knees while standing straight up (i dont need to bend over)

i think its because of my genetic make up..

1/2 dutch (short)
1/4 native american (long arms,)
1/4 german (slightly buff body type :) )

[otokomiraimarai]

first off, arm length has nothing to do with how tall or short you are (i'm short, and i have the longest arms in my dojo)

second, have you ever seen a japaneese guy run? most likely, they are twice as fast as any tall guy becasue they have a low center of gravity, i play soccer with some japaneese people and they can really book it.
third, no matter what type of fighting, the better trained will win, the advantage goes to the smallest guy because he is shorter and harder to hit, the short guy has LESS openings because he is the same size as the sword, the tall guy is easy to knock off balance, has many openings, moves slower because his center of movement is longer which requires more time to move.

third, some of the best bad asses in martial arts are VERY short.

lastly, i study traditional japaneese budo (cant say which ones, read the "does anybody study traditional japanese budo?" thread in "the katana")

no offence but, please get rid of your western mind set, AMERICANS ARE NOT THE BEST PEOPLE ON EARTH :eek: trust me, i am one.

yes america is a good country which i love, but we are arrogant, look what happend to lieutenant colonel Custer, he was arrogant too.

Dude I totally agree with you that makes so much sense I thought there was not another american that thought like me but I like what you wrote how people here really need to get rid of there american mind sets. Me myself I have always thought that my body yes was born here in america but my spirit was always waiting for me in Japan. Might sound strange but that is how I think about it.

[Hige Katsumori]

Ninja's had Katana's too. I thought most ninjas had blades called " Ninjato "... They were straight bladed katanas because the curved ones were too hard to make for teh ninjas. Concidering they weren't really rich...

[xi ryu]

yes, your right, the ninjato was straight (and shorter so that it could be worn on the back) it also did not have the groove cut in the side of the blade, this means the sword could not make hasuji (cutting noise) this was an important part of the ninjato because obviously ninjas dont want to be heard.

[Tenshin]

I think they were more worried about the sound of metal slicing through flesh and bone than hasuji. The ninja-to wasn't built that way for any particular reason (except it's length for drawing, but even then, I can do any ninjutsu draw with a katana) it was simply because they were poor, or didn't need a fancy sword. It was just a tool for them. Having a Katana would be like someone in math class with 50 different art pencils; Uneeded.

But ****, doesn't mean you can't be a ninja with a katana, they could wield any weapon they needed to. Ninja = versitility