[Idea] Music

[ShininShado]

This is just an overflow from the jobs thread, figured it could use its own. I think as long as kept in the context of Feudal Japan, there shoul be music in T LAW. Having the ability to create music would attract customers as well I think, and not sure but maybe creating dancing moves?

[sukiyakihotsake]

I think it would be a great idea if players could create their own music. It would make being a musician more interesting and have more people utilizing that skill. They would be able to name thier songs, perhaps even sell their song to other musicians so they dont have to go thru the process to create it.

But if it does prove to difficult, then perhaps choosing from say, 20 different songs to play might work also. They could travel to far locals to learn new songs too.

[Shinoku]

I think it would be a nice part wich would add some nice creativity to the game. If you for instance try to make a similair system for music as with the Legend Of Zelda: Ocerina of Time than it shouldn't be to hard to implent aswell. You take out your instrument and switch to a mode where you use your keys (numpad for instance) to play different tones and sounds. Would be great to actually compose music ingame :)

[ninjaxmaster]

yes, even something like playing the ocarina in LOZ:Ocarina of Time, this could be a relatively simple music system, doesn't have to take up many keys as i had previously suggested. just something to make being a musician fun.

[MitsueNeko]

If the music thingy was like that, what kinds of instruments do we use? Do we use the ones that existed during that time? Just wanted to know.

[SunWuKong]

Do we use the ones that existed during that time? That would be the idea. Era-specific items.

(Wouldn't it be wicked to see someone do a Hendrix solo on a shamisen [samisen]?!)

[ShininShado]

From reply on the social aspect thread addressing cultural entertainment.

Music: Of course we have no actual recordings from the time period, but many of its major instruments used during that time frame are still used today. There were three major sections of musical instruments:
1. Drums, of course simple percussion instruments, sometimes used in ceremonies, as thier rhythm were sometimes part of Buddhist prayers/Sutras/chants. As well, drums were used on the battlefield/along with banners/pennants to signal what sqaud had what orders.
Types of drums: ko tsuzumi and o tsuzumi were both hand drums, held in the hand and struck with the hand; a stick drum was called taiko and is still around today, translated it means "fat drum".
2. Stringed instruments were as well a thriving part of Japanese culture of the time, though I have never seen one of these instruments I have read several stories of them being used during the timeframe of the 16th century. Types of string instruments: Shamisen, probably the most popular string instrument of the time, three strings, about four feet in length, simliar to a banjo; the koto is another stringued instrument, usually 13 strings and around six feet in length, it would rest on the ground and a musician would kneel down to it. It is similiar to a harp, but it rests on the ground, and is straight in appearance. Cool site (http://www.genkienglish.net/genkijapan/koto.htm), simulates playing koto. Just playing a few notes really gives me a better feel for the game.
3. The last would be wind instruments, the most prevelant of which was the flute. Made of bamboo, simple but beautifully sounding instruments. "ORTHODOX HISTORIES OF THE SHAKUHACHI generally dwell upon the evolution of this five-hole bamboo flute in its later manifestations, after reaching the shores of Japan near the end of the 7th C. A six-hole, end-blown instrument which originated during the Tang Dynasty in China is thought to be an early forerunner of the modern shakuhachi. Its reedy voice can be discerned in gagaku, the orchestral music of the Imperial Japanese Court. Much later, during the Muromachi Period (13th-14th C.), a short, single-jointed flute called the hitoyogiri (also thought to have emerged through China or southwestern Asia) gained popularity amongst a class of beggar priests. Some ethnomusicologists trace the evolution of the shakuhachi back much further, to the banks of the Nile in ancient Egypt, and follow its movement east across the Iranian plateau and India via the Mohammedan Empire before reaching China. A jump across the Sea of Japan, however, was most decisive to this end-blown bamboo flute which reached a critical phase of development in feudal Japan destined to define its character forever. During the Edo Period (mid 16th to 17th C.) the shakuhachi was favored by a group of disenfranchised samurai warriors known as komuso. These mendicant Buddhist priests wandered the streets and countryside with large baskets called tengai covering their heads to symbolize spiritual detachment from the world. " (website: http://www.veronza.org/J-KJOH.html)

Music was played in the royal courts (gaguku), for the backdrop of plays(Nohgaku), as chants and prayers in Zen traditions(Shomyo), and sometimes by wandering folk musicians. By the way Mitsue, the sakura <cherry blossom> dance you talk about has its origins in a harvest festival I think I read.

General information on musical instruments and genres cited from: http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/japan/japmusic.html

[Kuraku Hideaki]

Could we also incorporate a gymnastics ability or learned skill where players can choose to perform to music for money. This would be great for role-play as well as entertainment. Making things more fun than killing will attract a lot more players.

[xi ryu]

the music would be cool, but you gotta admit, eventually, we'd be listning to modern day music and that would ruin some of the RP expirience. if the music stays from 16th century japan, than i would love to have it in the game.

[ShininShado]

Was thinking a good solution to some problems proposed by the concept of music is just making the instruments in static places. IE - Stages, amphitheaters, royal courts. Would be easier for programmers that way.

[connick]

is just making the instruments in static places
You are thinking linear.
People are going to want to take their tea outside and sip it on the veranda, so you can't limit tea to the indoors. Likewise people will want to play instruments in places other than an amphitheatre or royal court. People will say, "Why can't I play my music while I ride in my horse-drawn carriage?" Do you really propose that the answer should be, "Because you can't play instruments outside of a performance area."?

Don't impose false limits on aspects of the game unless it is absolutely necessary. Rather, you should strive to find some sort of versatile system with it's own inherent limitations that make sense.

[ShininShado]

If given the choice to have playable instruments in static places, as opposed to none at all, I'll opt for fixed places for them. It would be a million times easier from a programming stand to have fixed places for them.

[connick]

It would be a million times easier from a programming stand to have fixed places for them.
That's not even remotely true. If anything, static locations would be marginally more time consuming because you have to demarcate the areas in which music could be played. Think about it, you have:
A) The code for playing instruments.
and
B) The code to designate certain areas for music.
In both suggested scenarios you need A, but B is just extraneous.

[ShininShado]

In the fixed location scenario, the programmers would not have to worry about other ambiant noise, acoustics, etc. It would also remain static. In a fixed location that would not change, the instruments could be accessed and their interfaces would be static, instead of going through the complicated programming for how an instrument would look walking, how to play it while walking, would it break, etc etc etc. If given the option of no music or fixed locations, I'd choose the latter. Also in fixed locations, you have less of a chance of a hardcore roleplayer being offended by modern day influences, if you don't like the music the musicians are playing in the amphitheater, then leave.

[connick]

Any savvy programmer would construct the music code in exactly the same way for both circumstances. It's the one of the first tenets of object-oriented programming. The way it would appear in your hands would be identical whether indoors or outside. Likewise the interface for playing it would be exactly the same. As to the question of it breaking, that would be adressed naturally. Any object that can be manipulated in the game would have a value indicating it's destructability. The whole concept of object-oriented programming is that everything is broken into modular elements which can be modified independently of one another. So regardless of whether you were inside or outside, the code would be identical. The only valid argument you make is that of cordoning off areas for the sake of hardcore RPers. My gripe with that argument, however, is that you'd have a nonsensical message like, "That object is bolted to the floor," or "A mysterious force stops you from taking the instrument."

Search around on the internet for a program called Karel the Robot and tutorials to go with it. This will give you an easy, introductory look at object-oriented programming. Once you've got the basic concepts down you will better understand what I am talking about.

[ShininShado]

The way I envisioned it working was having the instruments in location, and having the player click or double click whatever, and bringing up the interface for playing it. The rest of the game fading to the background, with the controls in the forefront. The way you describe it, it's like a sword or other interactive object. The way I propose is not really actually having any interaction with the character per se, just being able to access the controls for it, and the music being played. I see your point about object-oriented programming, and could probably travel with any of the instruments outside of the koto. The koto interactive instrument (http://www.genkienglish.net/genkijapan/koto.htm) <towards bottom of page> from my post about the different instruments is sorta what I thought would work, but your point is good too.

[Gryph]

Why not just DJ your own music with a live365 station or with Teamspeak, or even perform your own using a mic? As long as you can come up with the station, microphone, and/or CDs, you could tell people to log into your station and listen in, or even password it.

[Sykoi]

Why not just DJ your own music with a live365 station or with Teamspeak, or even perform your own using a mic? As long as you can come up with the station, microphone, and/or CDs, you could tell people to log into your station and listen in, or even password it.

...Er? Did you read the post before you replied? :P

[ShininShado]

Could be done by using the client PC as host idea, not bad just would have to regulate it somewhat I would think.

[Sykoi]

We'll never allow players to:
a) Upload pictures or any other files from their hard drive
b) Broadcast radio stations throughout the world

Just because we have NO control over either (We could regulate each upload, but that would become overwhelming)

If art and music were to be in Tatsumaki (I hope we can add them both), then you'll only be able to create both ingame

[Gryph]

...Er? Did you read the post before you replied? :P

Yes, as a matter of fact I read the entire thread before I replied, as I do every time I make a post. I think that adding a music system to the game would add a huge amoung of completely unneccessary complexity, especially since there are external files for transporting sounds from place to place. It would be just as useless to build a computerised talking mechanism into the game to convert people's chat text into voice.

I do, however, think that including instruments in the game might be worthwhile, as it would be to build an action into the game for /play flute, /play drum, /play strings, etc to lend a visual component.

If people want to send sounds to one another however, they should download Teamspeak from the internet, pick up a microphone for $10, and play CDs or perform music.

Unless you plan on having the game run in DOS, people can and will use external programs to communicate or listen to common music.

[ShininShado]

That is very true. When I used to play other RPGs it adds SOOOO much if you are playing music to fit the theme of the game you are playing. I guess there will be ambient music for different towns, maybe not, but I definetly think there should be the ability to play instruments.

[ShininShado]

Maybe wealthy players with established estates and political power could have NPCs entertainers trained in musical and entertainment arts. That'd be awesome and the ultimate status symbol. Let's say you have dignitary Shingano to your estate to talk politics... and an NPC is walking around playing music, that'd be wicked. Maybe have specialized ones too, just a thought.

[Kiros]

I would have an old guy follow me and play theme music lol. Or have him play a koto while i meditate.

[Trin]

I'd like to hear someone playing an instrument in town as I pass through. It would be especially nice if it utilized directional sound, so that you hear them from the direction they are coming from. As you move closer to the instrument, the music gets louder, and as you get farther, the music gets softer.

It would add an amazing amount to the ambience, especially if you have musicians and dancers paying their way by performing in teahouses and such. I would love to see that kind of patronage system in the game.

It would be especially interesting if you both dancers and musicians had to use their particular skills in real time, much the way the fighting system works.

[MitsueNeko]

So Trin....are you coming to watch me dance and play the koto? I plan to be geisha among other things for the Bakemono...I'm sure Toshi will let you come see me since we're all friends here right, but it's not for free you know, need to keep business going. And don't worry about poison in your tea because I will watch all the tea I make always...I'm not that kind of girl or am I? MUAHAHAHAHA....jk...I'm not like that really...I promise...I hope....

I better work on my koto skills right now, or maybe work on the erhu...wait...erhu is chinese....but I specialize in erhu....darn...I'll just work on the pentatonic scale then....and I'll work on the dance right now, but need insparation... :P

[Trin]

So Trin....are you coming to watch me dance and play the koto? I plan to be geisha among other things for the Bakemono family...I'm sure Toshi will let you come see me since we're all friends here right, but it's not for free you know, need to keep business going. And don't worry about poison in your tea because I will watch all the tea I make always...I'm not that kind of girl or am I? MUAHAHAHAHA....jk...I'm not like that really...I promise...I hope....

I better work on my koto skills right now, or maybe work on the erhu...wait...erhu is chinese....but I specialize in erhu....darn...I'll just work on the pentatonic scale then....and I'll work on the dance right now, but need insparation... :P

I'm poor at the moment. Let me kill a few more thieves for bounty cash, and I'll be back in the teahouse to see your show.

[Sanctus]

It would be a nice aspect to the game. I just want to know what were they called in the Feudal Japan times? Ministrels? Bards? Or just simply musicians? Anyway, it would be fun to just sit down in a forest and compose some music.

[Trin]

It would be a nice aspect to the game. I just want to know what were they called in the Feudal Japan times? Ministrels? Bards? Or just simply musicians? Anyway, it would be fun to just sit down in a forest and compose some music.

Well, beggars who played instruments like the Shamisen were called Goze, if that helps.

[Sanctus]

Goze eh? Well that doesnt sound too prestigious, but then again they were beggars... Oh well.

[ShininShado]

Ambiance and atmosphere was main reason came up with this, and as a paying profession possibly someone could become master at and play for tips or to play at special events for sums of money.

[MitsueNeko]

Ambiance and atmosphere was main reason came up with this, and as a paying profession possibly someone could become master at and play for tips or to play at special events for sums of money.
Soo...these special events count as festivals too? I soo want to play the taiko...It's my dream to bang on that drum...hehehehe...not just banging the drum simply of course...I'll need to apply technique to it and the right rhythms and tones. But I'm trying koto...that instrument is just very challenging to me. I can't seem to play with vibrato right and the strings are just too confusing some times...Will the instruments go out of tune because of the weather because I don't know how to tune properly yet....I don't think I'm ready to tune it myself without breaking the strings, so will there be someone to tune it for me or will it never go out of tune...this is a problem with stringed instruments...they go out of tune if it gets too cold, too hot, of they become loose, or whatever....

And how much money can I get? Will I get a lot if I were to perform for Emperor Sykoi-sama? Will the Kagura be included as one of these 'special events'? I want to proably participate in the dance if I learn it or be a musican and play one of those drums or one of those japanese bamboo flutes on the side. I might want to try kabuki theatre if thats what it's called.

[ShininShado]

A lot of different possiblities here, ranging from street performer, to possibly national hero, or renown singer or composer.

[Trin]

A lot of different possiblities here, ranging from street performer, to possibly national hero, or renown singer or composer.

You could even have dancing and concerts as a celebration for a won battle against tyranny. Celebratory occasions would definitely be a lot more interesting.

There were also a lot of ronin that played instruments to pass the time. It would be fun. :)

[ToshiMaru]

You could even have dancing and concerts as a celebration for a won battle against tyranny. Celebratory occasions would definitely be a lot more interesting.

There were also a lot of ronin that played instruments to pass the time. It would be fun. :)

Or, we could just call Koda Kumi for a concert after the war. :-P

[MitsueNeko]

Or, we could just call Koda Kumi for a concert after the war. :-P
Or you could call yours truely...Mitsue...I'll be free if I'm in a good mood...And wouldn't Koda Kumi cost money? I'll do it for free you know! If you asked nicely!

And yes...I'm jealous...Koda Kumi instead of me! Fine! Be that way! I'll just become an apothecary and make you all pay!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! JK...like I'm going to do a horrible thing like that...but nonetheless...NO FAIR!!!! :cry:

[Slots]

Toshimaru is so mean i mean really! :P


wonder how big the whole minstrel population would be in T:LaW o.0...

[MitsueNeko]

Toshimaru is so mean i mean really! :P


wonder how big the whole minstrel population would be in T:LaW o.0...
And I hope the minstel population won't be very huge because then I'll be broke...then I'll just have to switch jobs...or maybe if I become a renowned performer...then I don't have to worry....

Please don't call Toshimaru-sama mean...it makes me...sad to hear my leader called mean...:crying:...