A tournament is coming up in a year, a tournament with 50 grand on the line. I want that money, so I need you help Tatsu.
I'm a Black Belt in a Kyokushin-kai Variant/Rip Off, and am pretty well known in the New Jersey Amateur scene for my striking, i'm a lightweight, for the record.
I have next to no ground game, and thus I come to you, my Tatsu friends.
Judo; Sambo, or Japanese Ju Jitsu?
I won't do BJJ, every school I went to that teaches that is full of pompous self loving masters who care more about is themselves. I want nothing to do with that attitude, so don't even suggest it.
I have a year to learn, here as how I see the pros and cons of each style. I want you to elaborate or suggest further, if that's cool with you guys.
Judo; Excellent Take downs and throws, good for Ground and Pound and imposing my will. Not very many submissions, some of the tosses are useless without a Gi/shirt.
Sambo: Basically Russian BJJ, with a more brutal flare. Might be too reckless, due to its love of flying take down/submissions.
Japanese Ju Jitsu: Don't know much about this, I think its mostly standing submissions?
WhiteHawk
05-10-2009, 06:01 AM
Hey there, it's nice to see you posting again.
Look, I practice Judo myself, so here's my opinion on it:
When it comes to learning ground work, I highly suggest it. Mixed Martial arts fighters with experience in Judo often forgo the submission techniques and prefer to "ground and pound" as you said, so it seems as though there aren't many - but the truth is there is a wide selection of different submissions, plus several armlocks and chokes (done right, these latter ones can be just as paralyzing if not more). You also learn several submission counter moves, so it's a great aid to getting your opponent off of you if it ever comes to that.
Also, severely pushing someone's arm over his normal range of movement can seriously limit his ability to fight even if he manages to get up later ( trust me, this happened before. I was winning but when the referee told him to let go of the armlock he snapped my arm before releasing. It was rendered pretty much useless for throws and I don't think I'd punch with it either, so he eventually got one point ahead of me while I dragged myself around ).
If you were choosing an art to learn from the very beginning, as in, "good overall" I'd pick Sambo; but since you're trying to cross train your current striking skills with groundwork and submissions I'd suggest you take up one of the other two. Personally I dislike BJJ as well - but can't help you when it comes to Japanese Jiu Jitsu as I don't have much knowledge on that.
Long story short, I'd pick Judo because you already have the striking skills - Judo concentrates on precisely the things you don't have.
Undead
05-10-2009, 09:54 AM
Goodmorning Sokuku :) I think I will be able to help you make a choice.
If you are choosing a secondary style, my advice would be to train in Jujutsu. If I remember corrrectly Sambo and Judo can trace their roots back to Jujutsu as well.
Jujutsu is so much more then just standing submissions my friend. Most schools train in all forms of striking and do extensive grappling. If your looking for submissions, jujutsu has an abundance of chokeholds, armbars, and other joint locks.
Out of all the styles I have tried, Jujutsu(and Boxing =P)was the best for me. You will be extremely well rounded and you'll be ready for just about anything.
In the end, what works for one, may not work for another. So choose what you think will best compliment YOUR skills.
Yagyu
05-10-2009, 10:01 AM
also keep in mind the actual forms of martial arts that existed at this time. Judo wasnt yet created yet as also Sumo wasnt created yet.
Undead
05-10-2009, 10:10 AM
Yagyu, as far as I can tell, this is a REAL tourney with mucho money on the line. lol =P
Shinobikaito
05-10-2009, 10:10 AM
Yes, i should mention, if you don't wanna learn from masters, look up videos on BJJ or something.
If you are a mixed martial artist, you should already know how to effectively sprawl to get out of submissions, but you need to be good at executing them too.
Personally, I would suggest atleast making sure you know how to AVOID armbars and rear naked chokes. Those tend to be the main aim for ground fighters. I know you asked for a style choice, but you said you had little to no ground experience, first learn how to effectively defend against different submissions.
After you learn decent defenses, I'd go for Judo.
I don't really like BJJ, I am more of a Judo person in the first place, but sometimes, like it or not, BJJ is atleast something you need to know how to defend against.
Look at Carlos Newton, the Gracies, and all. If you run into fighters that train in BJJ (which is quite common) you NEED to have a defense no matter what.
If you can round yourself off, I would suggest not sticking to three or four styles.
Though time may be tight, train in every unarmed fighting style you can.
Condition your body for tough work and prolonged stamina.
As an example an Mixed Martial Artist can easily understand, BJ Penn trains his heart by going underwater, picking up a rock, and running along the surface with it.
Though you may not go to those extremes, I highly suggest gaining the endurance factor.
Of you can outlast your opponent and be quick about stuff, you are good.
Hope it helps.
EDIT: YEAH, Yagyu... Real tourney, real money. XD Joking, but yes, it is real, I believe.
Undead
05-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Judo is derived from Jujustu, so is BJJ. You get a little of everything if you train Jujutsu, ^^
And Shino, Yes endurance is important,but so is mastering those "Three or four strikes"
BJ Penn would have gotten destroyed by GSP with extreme endurance or without.
Every time he threw an inside leg kick, it connected
Brazilian Jiujitsu is a derivative of early Judo; however, Judo concentrated on improving grappling/throws and submission work, while BJJ gave similar emphasis to striking and grappling.
Sambo was born from the mixing of early Judo with traditional russian folk wrestling, and therefore also combines striking with grappling.
If you're looking for something to compliment your already existing striking ability, I still consider Judo the finer choice.
EyeoftheHeart
05-10-2009, 01:21 PM
My opinion is, it is a matter of teacher rather than the name of the art. Most of the japanese arts has similar roots, although some of them are practiced a little bit (or more) differently today. But a good teacher can show you all the connections among them. Of course we are talking about getting ready for a tournament, so it is very hard to find a "good" teacher and learn from him in a limited time. But a good teacher, regardless of which martial art it is, always makes a difference.
Gheari
05-10-2009, 05:37 PM
It is true, you should pick the one with the best teacher. I can tell you a little bit about jujutsu in its true form. Its origin was as an art that samurai used to gain control over opponents weapons when they were disarmed. It thus has a large connection with knives. Honestly, in my opinion, jujutsu is the easiest thing in the world. Catch and bend, you barely need to move. Jujutsu uses a lot of chokes, joint locks, and throws, but also trains striking. I like jujutsu best, mostly because I practice it, but then again, it does come down to the matter of the teacher. One of the things I have against judo is that they're trained for competition, not reality, but then again you're competing... so it doesn't really matter.
Sokuku Ishimaru
05-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Thank you for your help Tatsu. After training in each style today, just to get a taste, I must say Judo is the most fun.
Sambo has the most brutal training, but they try to make me change my striking style. So no to that.
Japanese Ju Jitsu went pretty well, very effective as far as I can tell. But my stocky body won't be able to build the flexibility needed for some of the on my back chokes and locks, so its a no to that as well.
So, I have chosen to take a year of Judo. The Master is a pretty cool, apparently from Japan with some experience training Mixed Martial Artists. So he should be quite useful.
Also, to the 'I should know how to sprawl' statement. The first thing I learned after deciding I wanted to do MMA was sprawl, its how i've stayed on my feet for the fights. But it won't work every time, and having an ace in the hole is always good.
Edit:
Also, most of the people i've fought are BJJ blackbelts. The problem with that style is how widespread its become, its much like generalized 'Karate' at this point. Everyone is so confident in themselves they teach there students to be the same way, and they get beat. B.J. Penn is a BJJ world champion, but most of his victories have come via stand up. BJJ is effective, but its locks aren't that different from those of other styles. It focused to hard on the locks, and leaves out everything else. Half the BJJ fighters don't even know how to effectively do a single leg take down from the clinch. Both my full on K.Os came when 35-14 and 16-8 BJJ black belt fighters who won mostly by submission went down for a single leg in the clinch and I kneed them in the side of the head with my other leg.
Judo seems more well rounded for me. Between throws and locks and chokes, I think its the right style for me.
WhiteHawk
05-11-2009, 07:21 AM
Haha! I knew you'd like it. From your description I could tell from the very beginning it was best suited for you.
Undead
05-11-2009, 12:45 PM
Goodluck in your training, I look foward to hearing about your tourny next year :)
Gheari
05-11-2009, 03:06 PM
I don't know much about judo, but from what I do know it's a good style. And I'm sorry for going off topic but this is going to bug me if I don't correct it... Yagyu, sumo has existed in some form for almost two millennium; it became a sport in the 1500s though.
Sokuku Ishimaru
07-14-2009, 02:30 AM
Just a little update, the tournament prelims started yesterday.
Judo proved very helpful in my fights. Clinch+knees+hip toss= Victory for me.
The tournament proper is not for quite a few months though.
SunWuKong
07-14-2009, 10:21 AM
Gratz!
Keep going strong.
NinjaKerocker
07-14-2009, 10:50 AM
Kick some butt!
best of luck to you.
Wundai
07-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Same! Best of luck :)
And an idea, do we already have a 'Martial Arts thread' to talk about the general concept of different Martial Arts in the world?
Those discussions always interest me, I've had my own group in another forum, and as long as everyone respects the other person's Martial Art + there is a general feeling of no superior attitude stuff, things were going pretty smoothly there :)
If not shall I create one?
WhiteHawk
07-14-2009, 11:53 AM
Hahaha, I knew it. Most people just forego the whole grappling part to focus on striking, so they don't really know what to do when grabbed. The basic "clinch" everybody does when held up close is child's play compared to any Judo grip. XD
Nice to see it's working for you! ( And it's also nice to be proven correct. :P )
Philosophus
07-14-2009, 12:09 PM
No disrespect against those fighters, but any fighter without grappling and lock skills are **** in a real pinch, in a fight not set up by rules and acts :P
Sokuku Ishimaru
07-16-2009, 05:51 AM
Ground grappling and standing grappling are a lot different. I use standing grappling, because it straight confuses my opponent. Also, if your calling MMA 'acts', your thinking of the WWE. Two different things.
Also, just look at Chuck Liddell. The guy couldn't grapple that great, he had a fantastic sprawl and a decent wrestling back round, but he was no grappler. One of the most successful fighters in MMA history. Then you've got people like Thiago Alves, Thiago Silva, Wanderli Silva, and many more. Strike right, and grappling can be phased out.
Update 2:
Just got my opponent info. My next opponent is underdog and recent super star Toby Imada, who lost too Eddie Alvarez in the Bellator Finals.
Its in 3 months, and the guy is a veteran. But there is talk he might back out because he may have been invited too a bigger show. His grappling skills are scary, so I hope he does. I'm just not ready for him.