Cooking [Archive] - Eyes Out Entertainment Forums

Suchiko

11-18-2008, 10:06 AM

This has been burning a hole in my forehead for a while now, but what will the cooking system be like? Or if no one's thought about it, are there any ideas floating around? I want to make sure that cooking is important since all I want to do is cook and farm. Will there be a large range of meals to be made or just a few? Also, when cooking the same dish, would an experienced chef make a better dish than a novice, or would they be the same?

How do you think food should affect the players other than keeping them full? I mean, puking and food poisioning (diarrhea?) are good side effects for bad food, but what about good food? I think that stat raises (like in Mabinogi) are unrealistic. What happens there is you get everyone eating toast (boring) because it's +40 HP, and less useful recipes never get prepared. I know TLaW won't use stats, but the same thing could happen with cooks only making certain foods for specific benefits and discarding others.

Also, I saw in some other post someone suggesting having an eating animation run when you eat. I like this better than the usual point and click eating. You never see the food. I could just press the "eat" hotkey and munch the first food item in my inventory. It's impersonal and disrespectful to food! And if it is implemented, there shouldn't just be a plate with some red and some green on it that gradually disappears in 4 or 5 bites. It should look like what you're eating. It should work standing and sitting too since you don't always have 20 days to eat or a place to sit.

Comments?

Vahn

11-18-2008, 12:45 PM

Oo! Opinions. I love opinions. Especially when they're mine! Let's see...

Y'know - in all honesty, I had never thought about a Cooking implementation.

Now that you mention it though, I see no reason (beyond the obvious time-vs-resources) why something like that couldn't be implemented, and be cool. I like cooking in real life, I just never really thought about it in a game. Except that Wii cooking game (Cooking Mama, is that it?)...I see those commercials on T.V.

If something like this is/were to be implemented, you make some good points. A graphic that at least resembles the particular item to be masticated and ultimately consumed would be nice.

However, if players are able to start creating recipes, the image requirements would start getting a bit out of hand.

What if, instead of looking just like what you cooked, it was 1 particular item of food, from the same genre of cooking.

For instance: Sushi. They could have an image of a little ball of white (rice!) with a red slab (let's say, salmon!) on top. Maybe a band of green (nori - seaweed) to go around the center to hold it in place. This would then be the image for any type of sushi that was made, so that the artists wouldn't have to go through and separately make salmon, eel, shrimp, tuna, etc... (Now, when I say "only image" I am referring to the 3D image that one would see in an eating animation).

Then, you would at least have differences between sushi/sashimi, rice balls, udon and other soups, or whatever else is available to create, but would limit the amount of development work that has to go into it to something far more manageable.

In the end, this subject has what it takes with regard to detail and variety so as to be it's own game, rather than part of a game with the scope of T:LAW. It's a fun idea and definitely worthy of consideration. It'll be fun to see where this goes.

Kurisu

11-18-2008, 02:49 PM

I'm sure you can graphically seperate different food ingredients, that means you could display different food visually differently, too.

However, if it's only going to be done via texture it might look kind of bad(at least if we're talking about only adding textured flat tris when something is added to a dish) but if you add more meshes it will take more objects and could therefore have some impacts on game performance, because you'll usually get to see food in places where there's lots of it and that means a nice load of small objects, which is not really that good for performance...

Ah, I'm talking too much again.

Suchiko

11-19-2008, 07:16 AM

I understand you both. I don't want to cause any slowing down of the game. I like Vahn's idea of separating the categories of food. I don't know anything about meshies and tektures, Kurisu, but if they're bad then we should definitely stay away from them ^_^.

Now, about the actually preparation of the food. What's it gonna take to MAKE some makizushi? Do I just throw nori, rice, vinegar, etc into a bowl and voila? I think there should be some sort of ratio to the amount of ingredient, not just a matter of getting the right ones. That way, any average guy with a handful of random food can't outdo a master chef so easily.

Maybe when you select an ingredient to add to the recipe, there could be some sort of slider that lets you determine how much of it to use. The more accurate you are to the true recipe, the better the food turns out. The only way to find out the true recipe is through trial and error. Recipes don't just fall from the sky, someone had to waste a pantry full of food till they found the right combination. Then, they can pass it on to whomever they want to.

EDIT:
One more thing, a cooking animation! Whenever you start to cook (however you start it..) it should show you chopping or something..better yet, just show you getting ingredients ready. You know, pull out a can of red, a green...thing...a spoon. There's going to be some time between you getting the ingredients ready and finding the right ratios and actually cooking, so people won't wonder why you're just standing there not saying anything if you look like you're preparing to cook.

Ooh! And ANOTHER thing, if I'm making a milkshake, should I really be doing a chopping animation? No. You mix milkshakes. Before I hit the cook button I should select HOW to cook it. (Not choosing the right cooking method can make you fail at a recipe, even if the ratios are correct.) This way, if I want to chop onions, it'll show me chopping something, mix - mixing, etc.

One more about the recipes. To make them more complex, I think some components should require previous preparation. For example: If a recipe calls for chopped and salted mushrooms, you'd have to chop the mushrooms, then mix them with salt. Doesn't that sound fun!? ^_^

I'm sorry for rambling on so much, but I'm really excited about being a chef, and if I'm going to spend all my time doing it, I want to make sure it's fun.

Letum

11-19-2008, 09:04 AM

Sorry if I'm being all trolly and the like but.... Why?

For what reason is this something that we seriously can't survive without.. in a game?
What will you get out of it, other than limpy character due to excessive amounts of food eaten.

Since there Isn't stats (like we are used to blaa blaa) nor health (like we are used to blaa blaa blaa).

Of course eating is one of the most realistic things to do but, so is the lack of it and the outcome which obviously is death.
In a game that would be extremely troublesome, skyrocketing the price of food from the moment it is implemented as it would be an utmost necessity, that is if you desire to play longer than a week and I am quite confident in saying this, many will want to.

Though eating needs to be in Tlaw, without it hunting, fishing, farming etc. will become completely or atleast partially useless.

With those facts (if you can consider them as facts then) you should think of reason for food and consuming it, making a firm base for it before jumping into small details of the result which seemingly hasn't been found yet.

Just what I think of this, y'all can ignore this post and go on or perhaps brainstorm a bit ^^

SunWuKong

11-19-2008, 09:49 AM

It was mentioned that food will play a part in the game.
Not eating will lower your 'stats,' making you a little weaker and affecting game play.
So eating won't give you buffs, it will take away the negative effects of being hungry/starving.
Fire up the grill!

Suchiko

11-19-2008, 10:09 AM

I understand the it seems a little silly to put so much thought into something that YOU won't use, Letum, but some people are going to have to cook food for a living. It's been said many times before that things won't just drop from the sky, and the same goes for food. That's where the need for cooks arise; everyone has to eat. And if someone wants to devote their time to cooking and has a passion for it, it should be given as much attention by the developers as the combat system. People can go on and on and on about swordplay and weaponry, but that's not all that Tatsumaki is about, and it's not all it was supposed to BE about. I personally couldn't care less about combat, but I still think it's important to make it the best it can be for the people who want to fight. Same for blacksmithing, animal husbandry, tailoring, fariming, AND cooking.

yuir

11-19-2008, 10:43 AM

i agree that think food can have a positive affect on you "stats" for example if you wanted to be a big Strong warrior with lots of mussels you work out every day training, you come home and eat a salad yes your mussels would get stronger and bigger, but if you get the same guy doing the same training but coming home to a meal full of protein there mussels would grow faster

Suchiko

11-19-2008, 10:50 AM

I never thought of it in terms of affecting the body physically. Thanks, Yuir. Does that mean we'll get fat from eating lots of cake? :3

Letum

11-19-2008, 02:47 PM

Thanks SunWuKong, had forgotten all about that thread, my bad.

What Yuir wrote sounds good and would give the food some more meaning, rather than just being food and/or removing the negative state which comes every blue moon -_-

In my post I didn't address you (singular), Suchiko, i addressed you (plural), those who will read it.

Suchiko, I would surely be cooking if it will be in the game as i see no reason why pay someone else to do something that I could and I will most likely be a hunter in the beginning to get a firm grip of combat.. Hunter+Deer=cooking >.>

But still I haven't said at any point that tatsumaki is all about combat or that it should be, I was merely asking for an reason to have cooking (though in much more elaborate way).. Sorry.

Kurisu

11-20-2008, 07:53 AM

Now now now...

While some things might be cool, you have to have priorities.

However, I don't think some simple visualizations for the cooking processes would be that bad.

And remember: You have to think about all of this for every kind of craft... For cooking animations you can simply say: "Well, the small things while cooking are so minor, you just didn't notice your character doing that in between all the major things...".
But what about, let's say building? Carpenters? The list is going on...

Suchiko

11-20-2008, 10:52 AM

I don't get you on that second part, Kurisu, but it's not fair that there's gonna be fantastical war systems, fighting styles, combos, weapons, dojos, armies, assasins and training accomodations for COMBAT. No one prioritized there. They thought of every 'cool' thing they could and dropped it right in.

The way I see it, the top "priority" around here IS combat. Even in the wiki, cooking and the other "skills" have like...2 sentences, but there's a whole page about combat. Everybody's debating what kind of swords they had back then and the effects/benefits/disadvantages of this or that kill-stick or the mechanics of dying or killing someone.

What's so hard about a simple combination system with a few simple animations? Is that so much to ask?

All I want to do is bring some more attention to the "not important" skills(farming, building and carpentry included, I just haven't gottent to those yet). I don't want to fight, so should my way of life have less substance because of it? I understant that some of my suggestions might clash with other ascpects of the game and won't be implemented, but that's why they are suggestions.

I just don't want Tatsumaki to be like all those other games, so please don't take what I say personally. I might have even misunderstood you or something, but it's still important that I say this for anyone who does think that fighting and killing are all that matter.

Now I feel all mean and ugly for arguing....

yuir

11-20-2008, 11:36 AM

well i agree with you 100% and in fact i would say the farming, building and carpentry, ect skills are more important to the game over the fighting aspects of the game, for to have a single warrior full ready for battle would need host of other people doing jobs, warrior will need a sword, to get that sword you would need a miner, trader, blacksmith, market seller. plus all the over items he need will have to be made from scratch, plus the house he lives in and the food he eats. so i do think it is not too much to ask for them to pay more attation to the other aspects of the game apart from fighting

Gheari

11-20-2008, 04:22 PM

First of all let me say that all my loyal servants (you) shall cook for me... MWAHAHA! Also I have to add that having culinary, as well as agricultural professions will not only increase the realism of the game but also reduce the amount of "choppas" (People who just just want to kill. I coined it, but you can use it if you want.) because I'm sure they won't want to maintain a character as well. I wanted to start a thread on agriculture around the same time this thread started, but I was too lazy to actually put anything into it. However if someone actually does start talking about agriculture, I will contribute.

Senshi

11-20-2008, 05:25 PM

I think that having cooking, especially detailed cooking maybe, may be great for the game. Having things like restaurants, and food stands, can really add to the realism in the game. How skilled a cook is can affect a variety of things, especially the health of a character. There are amazing possibilities associated with this.

But also, I doubt it is high on the dev's list of priorities. So I think its likely that cooking will end up simple, like how crafting is in most MMO's.

Suchiko

11-20-2008, 08:35 PM

So...I'm not ugly for arguing? Thanks ^_^

I'll get to agriculture soon. And farming, dancing, I have a list I wrote down at school actually...... (it's very long so be prepared)

Vahn

11-20-2008, 10:11 PM

Ugly for arguing? Is that even possible? Maybe I should stop arguing - to think, me, ugly...I can't even fathom the possibility!

But no, you're not ugly for voicing - and defending - your thoughts. As long as we all take a moment to look over what we type to ensure we're discussing and not insulting, then the more the debate on topics like this, the better the end product will be, ne?

I'm going to go ahead and agree with what Senshi said about this topic in the list of priorities, and how the end result may end up.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that MMO's are ongoing development processes. When the game ships, it isn't necessarily finished. It can be added to, both in terms of new gameplay as well as improved gameplay. So, laying out "ideals" - even if they aren't in the game by launch - is still a great thing to do. It gets your thoughts and opinions noticed, gives the Devs ideas they may or may not have had, and sparks conversation with the rest of us *nod*

In addition to cooking providing a reason to open in-game businesses like restaurants and food stalls (thus generating income for the Clan in control of the area), those venues may also provide opportunity for other types of players. Depending on how Music is incorporated in the game (for instance, if at any point a character is able to perform on an instrument), taverns and the like are great places for that. Players who choose to role-play a little more hardcore will also have all the more reason to go to such venues, if things like cooking and food actually have a gameplay-effect on characters.

Suchiko

11-22-2008, 10:09 PM

Ok, so I've outlined an example recipe (I'm going on half-knowledge of how to make mochi).

Step 1
Drag in your mochiko and water.
Select the amount of each to use.
After that, select the cooking method.
http://i36.tinypic.com/65y35d.jpg
You get some goo!

Step 2
You'll need to pound your goo to get a good dough.
http://i35.tinypic.com/fknu5j.jpg

Step 3
Now roll the balls of mochi in some potato starch to keep it from sticking to all that God made.
You could stop here and have some nice, plain mochi, or continue it to make another dish.
http://i35.tinypic.com/jq14hs.jpg

Step 4
Take it further.
Cook up some sweet umaki paste by boiling umaki beans.
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uduu7k.jpg

Step 5
Insert the paste into the mochi balls.
http://i33.tinypic.com/vscaig.jpg

Voila! Daifuku mochi!

Edit: I missing sugar. It should be added in step 1. Maybe, since sugar only affects the taste of this recipe (you still get balls of mochi) I wouldn't fail this recipe, I'd just get bad tasting mochi.

Oh, I completely forgot the utensils! I guess you'd need a bowl and chopsticks (they mix with chopsticks on Cooking Mama) for mixing. A mochi pestle, rolling pin, a fire to boil on, and a pot to boil in. (and it's umaka, not umaki)

Suchiko

11-25-2008, 07:10 PM

Wait....maybe mochiko is sweet......

Starbear

11-26-2008, 01:51 AM

Wow thats a very good example and I do like it a lot. The only thing I worry about at all is that the recipies may be to complex. Rather than having 5+ steps perhaps cut down on the steps by bunching the ingreadients into 3 actions. I suppose its not a bad thing to have a lot of steps but keeping track of what you need and what you have to do for each recipie on your resturants menu (if you open one) could get annoying. Again thats just my thought, I have a lot of trouble memorizing, perhaps if the crafting interface lined up all the steps and the required materials and you can just do it as a series of actions.

Imagine an interface that displays all the ingrediants to make a type of sushi (Fish, Rice, Crab, Vegtable A, Vegtable B, and Seaweed). Then it tells you what actions will be required (Cut, Mix, Roll) The UI automaticaly brings up the first step of cuting the vegies and the meats, then it brings up the mix stage and of course the roll stage. Now where your memory comes in is, how much to cut (perhaps the type of knife that does it best), the mix could be remembering what ratio of ingrediants per roll, and the roll would need to remember how much seaweed to use. If its an iteam that requires cooking, add in what temperature you should cook it at. That way the details you need to remember are fewer but you still have to have some skill (aka personal knowledge) to be a good cook.

Players could then keep books on what temperature, what knife to use, and what ratio of ingreadients to put into their mixtures, and the game will take care of the Steps for you.

Suchiko

11-26-2008, 05:16 AM

That works too but it just seems too easy. Also, would everyone already have a reservoir of recipes, or is this from a book or something? I don't see much difference between our two methods. If I just had to chop meat first, I'd just slide it to 100 because it's all i'm using so no memory work there. The one thing that bothers me is that there's less work. You can't make any mistakes your way, unless the person's really dumb. If a guy thinks you boil sushi and is about to do it that way, he gets magical information that tells him what to do.

The easier you make cooking, the easier it is for other people to muscle in on the profession, I've seen it. Everyone can easily take out a few extra minutes and learn 10 recipes so that they won't have to pay a chef to do it. Warriors especially, they're often the main source of income because they need to be in such top physical condition all the time. And even if their dishes are way below chef standards, they do it anyway to save a buck and some time, making it harder for chefs to make a living.

Well all recipes wouldn't be as complex as this one. But the way I see it, if you want to be a good cook, you have to work for it. Keeping a book of the ratios and methods works just the same in helping with memory, but at the same time it doesn't baby the chefs. It also allows for variations in the recipe.

SunWuKong

11-26-2008, 10:00 AM

Suchi-

Nicely thought out and presented. I'd back your method and reasoning for it.

Now, how would the game differentiate between a bad creation, an okay creation, and a good creation? Each recipe would have its ideal proportions - getting a score based off of how close it matched?

1. ((80% rice flour + 20% water) +'mix') say gives 100% quality Mochi Goo.
(Any action involving heat (e.g. Bake) would produce a Failed result --> Ingredients lost. Actions other than Mix not involving heat would give a lesser success. Say Kneed gives 90% result leaving you with 90% quality Mochi Goo.)

2. Pound/Mash would give 100% result leaving us with 100% Mochi Dough.
(Other actions would again give a lesser result as above.)

3. Adding the starch would add another level as in Step 1. Say we added too much Starch to the dough giving us 85% quality Mochi.

At this point someone could eat the Mochi and get a response: 'Yum, the Mochi was good.' Different qualities would, of course, give different response from 'Wow! The world is a better place.' to 'You spit it out, vomiting.'

Adding Umaki, or whatever, would add to the difficulty level. However, it would also add to the price. So a good cook could really corner the market on specialty items.

Also, the quality of the ingredients could play a part. If you had bad Umaki, that would lower the quality of your Mochi.

Guard your recipes!

Gheari

11-26-2008, 10:54 AM

No potatoes! Sugar is iffy.

Senshi

11-26-2008, 01:23 PM

No potatoes! Sugar is iffy.

What he means is, potatoes and potato products, are native to the Americas, not found in Japan.
Sugar wasn't easy to come by either. (would be pretty expensive)

Suchiko

11-26-2008, 01:24 PM

SuWuKong - I like that idea with the other methods producing lesser results. Theoretically, if you knead instead of mix, you'd still get goo. It just wouldn't be as good. I was just going to go with a straight fail, but that is much better. Maybe if someone decided to cut it, they'd get "Somehow you still ended up with goo." and not "Cooking Successful!" The goo might be like 20-25%

Senshi-sama, Gheari - You're right I forgot all about the potato thing! Well there'd be some kind of starch-substitute then. It must be coated with something though.

Starbear

11-26-2008, 03:38 PM

Isn't rice a good source of starch?

I suppose your right a more complex system in regards to cooking and other crafts would allow only the serious practitioners to dominate the markets rather than allowing random people to just pick it up and supliment their own skills.

Suchiko

11-26-2008, 04:23 PM

I have no idea....

Delerium

11-26-2008, 11:22 PM