Castle Seiges?

[Gheari]

If you didn't get it from the title I want to know how castle sieges work.

In feudal Japan castle sieges were more about attrition than combat, unless the defending side received reinforcements. Now I'm really wondering about how it will work when it's possible to get word out even when it's not possible to physically get word out in the game.

[Kurisu]

Interesting question... I think the best solution would be a timer for some hours... But... Hm.

Well... I'm now just writing what came to my mind.
You have to keep some percent of your population alive or you'll lose a city. The population can starve, be poisoned and manipulated. And the defenders have to stay as long as the population is decimated. Now we have to find out how much food you can store and how much the population will need. Defending a castle shouldn't be easy but taking one shouldn't be easy either. This is something hard to balance... I'd say it should be easier to defend, otherwise building castles was senseless.

[Gheari]

Defending a castle SHOULD be easier, unless you run out of supplies. Or of course there is the possibility that you could enclose fields and ponds within your walls, keep pigs and cattle in the keep and chabo in the yard.

[Joeru]

Indeed. Defending a castle should be easier, but it should still be hard.

And yeah I think a timer would be a solution to getting the word out. It's how we do it in KnightOnline.

[Kenshin]

well im no historian but what kinda siege weapons did they have in this time period in japan? i mean from what i know of siege yeah its easier to defend a castle but when the attackers have trebushays(big catapults of doom sorry for sp) ... it can get nasty especially when dead bodies are ammo 0.0. but i think that siege should definitely have some thought put into it since it will be a major decision point for a lot of battles how long the defenders can keep out the attackers. as for communication what could be done is people inside castle walls cant talk to people out side of the walls. now i know this would only be in game so of course phone calls ims and emails would be shot of to notify but it still wouldnt be instantaneous.

[Ebisu]

I agree with Kenshin. Lets assume they will honor the most realistic course. In that case, the defenders might try to take advantage of a gap in the offensive to send messengers to any nearby allies. It wouldn't be easy, and the messenger, assuming he/she is a player, would seriously be risking their life (on a perma-death server). As far as out of game communications, it's a shameful, honorless fact we'd have to compensate for when developing the siege strategy. It could, however, be covered.

Before putting a major fort to siege you'd simply have to cripple their aid. Putting fire to outside stores of food and weapon/armor stock, cornering and killing or crippling the more isolated pockets of reinforcments they would have expected to come when they put the word out. All this would have to be done swiftly, preferably in the night, so that by dawn the siege is begun and they have little hope of outside help. Additionally, I would send spies into the fort the day before to poison the water supply and ruin the food stocks. It sucks to have to get around out-of-game communications, but doing so would illustrate some truly beautiful strategem.

[Kenshin]

there could be some ways to comunicate in game though i dont know how feasibul the first will be. fire signals. i am not sure where abouts they where used but the lighting or lack of lighting a large flame sending up smoke could inform the allies of the fort. a nother idea i have thought of was pigions or the japanise equivalent. putting messages on the foot and having it fly home to cary a message to inform others. this could for the enamies maby be shot down but that would probly be very hard. plus coding again would proably be a pain. i think ebisu has got it with the fact for any attackers to win they prety much have to have some one on the inside unless at night they can break the main gait, get in some other way, or just stick it out till they starve.

[Ebisu]

That is sharp thinking Kenshin. Fire and smoke signals are a very real possibility, considering the era, and the fact that the player population will soon have fireworks at their disposal. Trained carrier pigeons would be an excellent addition to the game for those players who wish to be animal tamers/trainers, and would make those skills that much more valuable. Then the attackers would have to poison the pigeons too, hahaha.

[Joushio]

What if the defending castle can call for AID,IE Supplies.When this happens an event is triggered which spawns a few carts of food etc,Along with a few guards.Now the besieging army has to stop the carts from making it to the castle,If they do then the castle well,Doesent get food and if they dont then the castle gets a + to their food reserves and are able to last longer.

[Zomg Dylan]

defending should defiantly be easier. there should be a wide array of fortifying weapons and traps (different types of locks, ambush spots, pudgy(?) pits, and what not). but i would like to stay away from cliches like rolling boulders and catapults.

[Kenshin]

i dont think it should be an event i think the city should have to do it them selves. one thing that could make this easier would if the defenders could dig tunnels and hide the entrances so they could bring in food that way. also the wicked attack from behind with the main force that was soposed to be in the fort. i would love to see the attacking generals face when the brunt of the army inside the fort appears behind his lines.

[Gheari]

Most combat in this game is intended to be done by players. Especially, if not solely the wars.

[HeniuriSaito]

Laz0r GUnZ! THERE MUST BE LAZ0R GUNZ!!!! WALKING TANKS WITH LAZOR GUNZ AND NUKES ON THEIR BACKS!!!!!!!!11111111elevenonehundredone! lol

Capatults and Trechubets are mostly out, so, a battering ram should be makeable with some wood and manned by 4-6 men, that's more like a possibility, blocking all known way outs would block people from contacting the outside, and, unless they have a big stock of supplies... They would have to break the siege, this way there could be the "supplies counter" for the defenders and a "number/morale counter" AND the "supply counter" for the attackers, because if the defenders simply break the siege but the enemy's supplies are still high enough to take the castle that'd be somewhat unfair, so if the defenders are able to break through and at least bring reinforcements OR even end the siege by killing many of the attackers reducing their "numbers/morale counter" that way the defenders would surely have more chances than "starve to the death" and would also make the attacks even harder, making the attackers really think about attacking and making them fight harder for the glory. I can't think now what should be exactly these "counters" and how they shoud really work, but that's an idea, and I think it'd be better.

Of course, with time people will use outside-of-the-game methods, but, we'll have to bear with it or use those "ALT+TAB DOESN'T WORK" thing, I don't know how, but Survival Project, or something, an old mmorpg had this. That would solve most of the outside-of-the-game methods problems... of course, there is always someone to "break trhough" these things.... but these things happen.

[Gheari]

I don't think that there should be anything to stop people from fighting. They should have to decide that it's better to stop. This would truly be a game of freedom.

[HeniuriSaito]

Indeed, I can't really argue with that.

However, Castles sieges must have a rule, like, it can't be simply "KILL EM ALL AND REACH THE MAIN ROOM", or it can, but it should have something like... Even like a warning, like: "The forces are evenly matched" "You are winning this battle in numbers" "You are losing this battle in numbers" so the leaders should be aware to retreat or not, however right now I can't think onf anything good enough... Also, the possibility to do the harakiri, if you are losing, you die and simply appear in your "new hideout"(for non-perma-death sv.), like a really quick retreat and, of course, the worst wound penalties. There should be a messenger before each attack telling one's conditions for retreat or anything, like the attacker telling the defenders to give the castle and simply retreat or whatever, of course this could be all player-done, but there should be some sort of "counters"(invisible or not) or something, so that the situation could be told to the leaders, since it is still a computer 3rd/1st person rolpeplaying game, and, i'm sure not everybody would be able to see everything happening in the battlefield and that wouldn't be good to know the situation of any side, and I don't mean that just for sieges, but also for normal open field battles, meaning side A is the A's Army, side B is B's army and side C is B's reinforcement-C's army, like the simple party sistem , but being done by enlisting in the clan's(or whatever) "home base" I think you get me, so a grafical or numerical stats could be shown in some way, as those guys used big banners on their backs, some statistics, you get me? That way someone crazy enough would be able to simply join the battle for "fun" and not count on any side, or maybe talk to the lord and join the army, these things...

I'm sorry if I meant, but I don't really mean that those counters decide wheter you lose or not, are just some sort of information, like, player A is the general of A's army, so he is the general but he must have a subordinate that could gather these counters' information in a grafical or numerical way, it could be an npc or player, so the general decides what to do.

I don't mean that the battles should be decided by numbers, but should be at least "seen" by these "numbers". But only the players should fight the fight itself.
It's just a thought anyway.

[DeathBringer]

I like the idea of castle siege but it should be hard to attack a castle.

[HeniuriSaito]

Yeah, and it will be, since the battles will mostly be man-to-man, also, the defense should have many more defenses like traps or anything, and welcome to our humble forums, deathbringer.

[Kenshin]

why are catapults out? were they just not used during that time or what? also for defenders i just thought of grappling hooks? for infantry invasion also pretty awesome

[Kakii366]

grappling hooks is more like ninja tools

[Gheari]

Grappling hooks are not an entirely shinobi tool. They are used to climb walls and would probably also be used to secure ladders.

[Kenshin]

hey just to bring it up again and i hate to harp because this poster has been on but can any one say why no catapults? i at least believe they were an important siege tool?also will it be plausible to rig...some....explosives? like lots of gun powder or something like from fire works?

[HeniuriSaito]

I can't be accurate about japanese history before 1550, however I don't think they used it on japan at all, (don't trust age of empires, DO NOT trust AoE) but I think they didn't use catapults as siege weapons (I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this, but I don't recall having them at Shogun: Total War, anyway, lol).

And the game is set BEFORE there could be western influence, like the gunpowder, muskets(even if they were pistols and not really muskets, just some modified big pistols, since japan didn't really have muskets like the ones used by napoleon, the brittish and americans and all until late 1880s) so no gunpowder. Traps and this sort of thing, perhaps, may be possible.

I didn't think about it, but grappling hooks could be awesome! However, I don't think that "any" soldier could be able to use them, since it does require some strength and physical resistance...

About the traps, I don't know much about japanese traps, maybe just the "poisoned blades" that they did, letting swords and spears on "fertilizer"(I don't know the word and am tired to search right now, but you know what I mean) the night before the battle, so, even if not killing an enemy, it would be worse having to treat all those wounded and sick soldiers, since that caused thetanus, I don't remember the word for that illnes right now, I'm almost sleeping here. And simple traps like the ones the egypts used like hidden crossbows on walls, hidden spears on small holes, those simple traps of a big hole on the ground full of spears covered by leaves and all...

Someone with time and memory might be better than me at this.

[Kakii366]

i think it is at times of japan isolation.. they mostly use rams and alot of samurais hahahh

[Pysgod]

Yes...they didn't use catapults. They had other means. Ladders and rams. Also long hooks.

[hessan]

The objective in Japanese warfare was always to capture the castle, not destroy it. As a consequence, one wanted to do as little damage to the structure itself as possible. At least that is my impression.

You see the French doing the same thing in the Hundred Years War. When they were taking parts of Gascony (an English territory for over 100 years before the war started), there were times when they would refuse to use the bombard cannons in order to prevent damage to the town or castle fortifications even though it could have shaved MONTHS off of the siege.

[Kenshin]

hey i was looking around and how about the breaching towers? and it did say they used hooks on roaps for sieges.

[HeniuriSaito]

Kenshin, not to offend you, but this is japan, not europe around the 1000's.

Their army vs. army battles in open field were like any other, with strategy and numbers. Their sieges, were something to take that place to their own instead of throwing chaos and destruction everywhere. The sieges were much like archers firing above the walls, closing all possible ways inside the castle, and demanding surrender or fight to the death. In surrender, the defender lord could agree to join his enemy on alliance, or kill himself, or give all of his lands or something like this(we read, and we know that samurais were honor and blood itself, but that's history, we know very well that many of them were corrupt, many did not have the courage to die; not that all of them were like this, but many of those were not 100% educated by the bushido, many were not samurai at all, just some merchant or something trying to impose power, since the samurais at the time were the ones who could kill anyone below them... That's humanity, we can't change this. It's the same thing as having cheaters on online games and all...).

If the defender would not surrender, and have honor, he could well open the gates and send his men to battle. Although most of the armies were just bunch of farmers with spears and a chest plate, with few samurai on horses leading and ordering them.

The decision about surrendering or fighting was entirely on the daymio or whatever, with advise from a strategy council before the decision was made official. That's what I mean to implement: Each army should be made by the simple "party system"m done by recruiting at the "HQ"(castles, recruitment posts...) so that one of the generals or advisors from the leader of the other clan could make an analysis on numbers and troop types an tell his lord about the situation. That could do great, a simple "skill" that only a certain member of each clan could have, so that the council before the battle could have some statistics to be based on, and studied so the clan could reach as reasonable decision about what to do on sieges(and open-field battles too). I forgot the words, but I hope you get my idea.

[Kurisu]

Good that you know so much about this, it was a very interesting read :)

However, I don't want this to be a skill. Tatsu is based on player skill and not some numbers you got for repetitive clicking.

[Gheari]

I agree with Kurisu, if your scouts can glance the enemy army and estimate their numbers, then they should, but if they can't then they should either learn or stop trying to scout. A strategic advisor does not usually spend large amounts of time in the field, though he may compile the numbers of the enemy army in its entirety from scout reports of smaller groups.

[Zorbon]

Yar, Ahoy thar Capitan Zorbon T Bones here,

I commandeered Stephen Turnbull's "Siege Weapons of the Far East" Volume 1

Ye shall hath knowledge soon as I read it=P


(speaking of which you know, the chinese had siege towers and catapults in the 1200s...)

[hessan]

(speaking of which you know, the chinese had siege towers and catapults in the 1200s...)

And as we know, the Japanese stopped copying every little thing the Chinese did long before that period began. :p


I am certainly looking forward to the info.

[HeniuriSaito]

That's exactly what I wanted, guys :D

I meant the "skill" as just an idea for people to make better ideas :D having scouts could be awesome, I totally forgot about them. Based on my idea, the scouts could report to the "guy who knows" and he could report to his lord and other generals an estimated number of enemy troops. Or the scouts could do this directly to the "big guy".

And I think Hessan is right, but, oh, great Zorbon, may thy knowledge show us all the right path to the divine light that will free our souls from doubt and ... Y'all lazy bastards! Men them cannons and fire 'till y'all can't see 'em ships floating anymore!

[Zorbon]

And I think Hessan is right, but, oh, great Zorbon, may thy knowledge show us all the right path to the divine light that will free our souls from doubt and ... Y'all lazy bastards! Men them cannons and fire 'till y'all can't see 'em ships floating anymore!

you japnophile ninja guys really suck at pirate talk ;)

[Gheari]

China was also using cannons by the mid 13th century but we know that Japan didn't have them until much later.

[Zorbon]

more as i come across it

[Hime-sama]

If I remember correctly, many years ago..well not that many. I believe there were limited siege engines and catapults, but many samurai disapproved of them. Like the early use of guns. Warfare was primarily face to face. Honor to Honor. A siege was placed. Samurai went to field. end of day they came back and it continued till those who had less men held up in thier castle. Then with use of ladders and catapults attacked the castle. But unlike western catapults, the were primarily used to throw items of gunpowder and fire.

But that was years ago and my history isn't that great. :D

[HeniuriSaito]

you japnophile ninja guys really suck at pirate talk ;)


I suck at any kind of talk but normal talk. Even in my own language, what can you expect from another language. And no, I'm not a japnophile ninja guy D: I'm more like a nazi-lazy bastard who plays only in the german side of any game. And I'm not into that pirate talk things... I'm more like a Mr. Bond's talk, which is something more normal/formal :rolleyes: That's why I can't use anything but irony to make good jokes.

What hime-sama said is basically the work that these siege equipment was used for... And wasn't greatly used, by the way... Regarding this... I don't think that there should be catapults in T:LaW, and they probably didn't have any kind of cannon or ballistas, right? Only primitive rams were their basic way of opening doors. If not by infiltration. I think... Something like the soldiers cut some trees and make a 4-man ram, would that be good for the game?

[Gheari]

Rams with a roof on top! Stress the roof, I don't want to be shot!

[HeniuriSaito]

Yeah, of course, that's why it needs lots of wood.