Griefer Paranoia

[SunWuKong]

Hey Folks!
I've noticed a good number of posts voicing people's concerns about griefers. Yes, they suck.
You don't want to run into them and have your character die, lose possessions, whatever.
(However, you still play MMO's. :hmmm: )

So.
What are your concerns and fears about being griefed?
(If you can relate them to Tatsumaki, and/or give ideas how we can reduce the Grief level - great! )
There is the Karma system.
Families and other groups for safety in numbers.

[Lodeclaw]

I would enjoy seeing griefers publicly executed. :D I would travel great distances to watch.

[SunWuKong]

Not quite what I was looking for. :(
And you do mean their characters, right?
(Think before you reply, please.)

[Lodeclaw]

My apologies. I was only kidding, and I did mean their characters. :(

I would like to see strict consequences for repeat griefers. What I meant by my post is I would like to see those people treated like rule-breakers and have their characters terminated if deemed necessary. Too many mmorpgs are not strict enough in keeping their communities civil.

[OdaNobunaga]

i suggest they commit Suicide/ Seppuku :D a dishonour for them to repeat killing players deem them as murderers hehehe a degree from the Shogunate!!!!!

[nobody4422]

What are your concerns and fears about being griefed?
(If you can relate them to Tatsumaki, and/or give ideas how we can reduce the Grief level - great! )
There is the Karma system.
Families and other groups for safety in numbers.

Hey

Ok, before I comment Im going to make sure I have the right idea about Karma.

Karma will me sort of a measure of someones worth. It will dictate NPC interactions such as quests/missions as well as pricing for goods/materials/services.

Apart from karma theres also families/clans for safety in numbers. And NPC police with jails to detain griefers. Finally, for the very serious trouble makers there is public execution with Perma-Death.

This is correct right?

Now, as much as Id hate to admit it, murders, street gangs, banidts, and other criminals exist in real life and so people should have the option to play such a character in game. The difference is that behaving in such a matter in real life carries serious, long lasting consequences, the game world does not. The worst that usually ever happens in a game is I die, lose all my inventory, and wait a down time for respawn. All in all not to severe.

Some of the systems in here are relatively new so I dont know how well theyd work. The others will depend on how much of a punishment they really are.

One would think that the most effective tool will be the threat of Perma-Death for chronic griefers/gankers. Most people who value their character will try to avoid this at all cost. The problem is that most griefers/gankers dont value their character. Add to this the idea that a brand new character is going to be able to fight as well as a seasoned character so long as the player can, nothing really stops them from just making a new character and coming back in (Dont say IP ban either, this is a drastic step and dev teams tend to avoid it, espcially when people are paying)

I know that large groups for safety doesnt work to deter griefers as they usually tend to target the weak and new characters who have yet to learn the game or establish themselves socially. This then leaves new characters to rely on the kindnes of others to help defend them, which isnt always there. This is how griefers are most damaging to the game. The new players first impression is that the game is full of jerks, the game sucks, and they dont want anything further to do with it (Ive seen it before).

Jails sometimes work, but sometimes dont. The instances when they dont work are when the the police force is too weak to apprehend criminals and when griefsquads get so large they can simply break their memebers out of prison whenever they want (Again I know from experience).

Karma, the way I understand this is going to be implented is a pretty new concept. Depending on the severity of the penatlties held by having low karma/honor this could most likely be the most effective tool in combating griefing. Since it is a system that actually effects the players ability to play the game, it would mean that everytime they kill someone they get weaker and weaker (figuratively of course). But as I said its effectiveness depends entirely upon the severity, to lenient and peopel wont care, to harsh and non-griefers will be affected.

All in all Id have to say, that for now, it seems the systems in place may be adequate, but I would leave room for a lot of changes. Youll proably need them.

This then leaves how you would classify and identify a griefer. Sometimes peoples actions may seem to be griefing, but really they are part of a calculated plan, and vice versa. How do they plan on distinguishing between the two? Even then, some amount of murderers and bandits should be allowed, in they have their place in the grand scheme of things. In my opinion, it all depends on their role-play wether or not its RPK. Its one thing to Randomly Player Kill, its another thing entirely to Role-Play a Killer.


PS. Sorry about the long post, its just my way opf showing that I care. :D

[ToshiMaru]

My apologies. I was only kidding, and I did mean their characters. :(

I would like to see strict consequences for repeat griefers. What I meant by my post is I would like to see those people treated like rule-breakers and have their characters terminated if deemed necessary. Too many mmorpgs are not strict enough in keeping their communities civil.

True, True. But your forgetting that the Seppuku system can be exploited; as said in other threads. If a greifer continuelly kills, and creates a new character after seppuku, then he will never be stopped.

I say, the game should also carry records on to the account, instead of just the characters. That way, if someone has created a lot of characters, and has a bad record of killing, then his IP will be logged, and scheduled for banning.

[Kuraku Hideaki]

Yes i agree. An IP ban will stop those kinds of people.

(PS Gankers? Someone has to play less FOM. I think the term i see in these kinds of games are KS'ers. [Kill Stealers] But i may be wrong.

[Mano]

a little time of vocabulary :p

KS : kill steal, that's when pointless games only gives loot/xp priority to the one who get the last hit on a monster, thats the kill steal:)

PK : player killer, people who used to kill people, without or with reasons,


honestly, if the PK is really accorded to a roleplay (some assassin, some crazy guy that will be put in jail or something) i don't see the point of banning them, i do think such action would only been taken for hackers / cheaters of any kind, as well as obvious exploiter :)

i don't think PK is a matter of ruining a game, and since i'm a huge PK (but according to the faction/clan/races) i won't stop attacking people if they gave me reason to do so :)

as well as PK spree, that's allways been a huge probleme between carebears/pvper, lemme explain :

most people only get parked in one of these two groups, that makes the old opposition and hate between pure pvper and pure rper

example :

here first one (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/images/20050103.jpg)
here econd one :p (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/images/20040903.jpg)

well all this to mean that if people feel frustated by endless wave of PK, i do think that's the game that didnt took enough attention to make rp / pvp regulated as well as possible to do together :)

so please don't ban people for this :/

[connick]

A ponderous topic. I don't think Tatsumaki will be staffed well enough to track the actions of every player nor can I think of any blanket rule that would catch griefers. Best bet sounds like your average GM intervention concept. If someone is harassing another player, a petition/report is made and a handful of staff or qualified volunteers look into the accusation. Give them the access to logs and an in game area to take people aside and investigate. This may not catch every problem player, but well-mannered players can at least know it's being looked into. There will always be new exploits and tricks popping up for people to abuse, so it would be vain and impossible to incorporate the anti-griefing rules into the game engine itself.

[Isuiln Fellblade]

Griefing is a very delicate subject, and difficult to moniter and stop. Say someone, out of RP or griefing or whatever, kills someone new to the game several times in a row. Someone sees this, and proceeds to do the same thing to the griefer to give him a taste of his own medicine... who are we going to look down on? The griefer... or the griefer?

I think the only real way to stop it will be some kind of vigilante system, so that the player base, who knows who is a griefer and who isn't, can take some sort of action. Of course, the would have to be counter-abuse measures, such as a karma limit before you can go after someone.

[nobody4422]

The vigilante systems doesnt work too well espcially in games like this based on politics. Like you said Player 1 starts griefing, so Group A starts killing him. Player 1 starts whining and gains the sympathy of Group B. Goupr B then starts killing off Group A. And so on. Eventually people dont want to kill of Player 1 because they dont want to start getting killed by Group B. So Player 1 is able to kill with no penalty.

The best way to counter griefing is to have in game penalties to gameplay (ie the Karma System) for random or out of character killing.

But this then leaves the problem of telling which is which.

BTW there is no paranoia about griefers, they will appear and so there needs to be a way to deal with them.

[connick]

The best way to counter griefing is to have in game penalties to gameplay (ie the Karma System) for random or out of character killing.

I'd like to refute that. The best way to counter griefing is to put a human in charge. No amount of code will ever be able to discern the motives behind a players actions. No amount of code will make the game able to arrive at fair conclusions as to who is being victimized. Like I said, staff should be in place to accomodate players who are being harassed. It would be so simple to have a handful of invisible staff members checking up on reports of abuse and exploitation. After investigating claims of foul play the staff member can solve the problem by doling out punishment or perhaps by gently altering the course of the game (e.g. Entering the body of an assassin NPC and killing the griefer or somesuch.)

[SunWuKong]

Check out the Wiki: Serious Crimes (http://www.tatsumaki-online.com/wiki/index.php/Jail)
(I believe it was stated that this punishment also applies to excessive Griefers/PKers.)
And yes, the Dev's are going to be watching out in-game.
(This was a time a military dictatorship. :-p :) )

Good discussion, however, this is not what I was looking for.
I want to hear why griefing bothers you, not what should be done about it. Personal stories.
You play MMO/PvP games. They clearly state that PKing is allowed, you know it's going to happen.

So, why does griefing bother you so much?

[Sykoi]

On that note I'd like to make sure everyone realizes that there will be special 'forces' under each emperor, selected by us - similar to other game's GMs.

[Lodeclaw]

On that note I'd like to make sure everyone realizes that there will be special 'forces' under each emperor, selected by us - similar to other game's GMs.
Special forces? What kind of special forces? Police? :D Can I be an officer and lay the smack down on griefers? :chairshot

[Tekashi]

If you also have a group of mentors to help new players I would join them I like meeting new players.

[ToshiMaru]

Actually, now that you think aobut it, Greifer's in a game like this. Isnt greifers, like what the comic strip said; and others in aLOT of games, greifer's help give excitement to a dull life. Well, once in a while <--. But yea, i guess the idea of Special Forces will work, greifing isnt a big issue, as long as it doesnt become a major war between large groups of families, or people. I emplore that Family Members get to know each other, and know their allies gameplay style well. :cool:

[nobody4422]

Good discussion, however, this is not what I was looking for.
I want to hear why griefing bothers you, not what should be done about it. Personal stories.
You play MMO/PvP games. They clearly state that PKing is allowed, you know it's going to happen.

So, why does griefing bother you so much?

Ok
Sorry Sun, I misunderstood

As said by someone else there are basically two extremes in debate. You have the griefers and you have carebears. As usual I like to think that I belong somewhere in the midle, but slightly to the carebear side.

Of course I understand that in a MMO where PvP is not only allowed, but is the only form of combat, then of course I am going to be killed by other players. I also accept the fact that there are of course people who kill for no apperant reason in real llife, so it should be expected in game. A certain amount of it does in fact add a little excitment to the game. It keeps you on your toes, and makes you watch your back when traveling alone across long distances. Basically what Im trying to say is RPK is good, but only in small amounts.

The problem occurs when RPK/griefing becomes out of hand, when you cant leave the confines of the safe zone without expecting to get killed by a large pack of griefers. Its at this point when it starts to disrupt the flow of the game. Politics, trade, even legitimate battles and wars can be sidetracked when griefing is left unchecked. And this is the point when it starts to annoy me.

Contrary to what some believe, MMORPGs are not based on combat, they are based on RP, combat is just one facet of the RP. Even though combat is fun, I also find it fun to negotiate the political atmosphere, play the storyline events, and find time to meet new people. Now, what I dont like about excessive griefing is that it forces me to focus on just the combat element of the game so I dont get the chance the experience I want out of the game.

Thats basically my take on it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the predatory behavior griefers tend to exhibit by targeting mainly new and unexperienced players. Im not going into great detail, but this can and does immediately put some people off the game, which tends to keep the player base small and relatively stagnant.

[OdaNobunaga]

i guess those "killers" unless they repeat killing me then i get bordered by them :D. Greifer's and pker are always in mmorpgs, itz just that how we gona control and restrict them(if we want to).
what if Ninja(player) ordered by leader or lord to kill someone? Ninja's do those dirty work and steal information from other people? Who do we determine they are not Greifer's? Maybe issue them a letter to prove he is killing by order?
but y not make it like Greifer's will suffer bad reputation(which they dun care i guess) every time they killed some innocence players and every time the reputation get worst till the SHOGUN order a "hunt" for this "killer" with a reward?
after getting caught they are to commit Sepuku and allow to make a new char with indication that he was a killer in his previous life and carries a poor reputation?.
Oh man think i got into the story hahaha :D.
should be saying y Griefer's border me so much hahaha. and i guess it depend what will happen if i get PERMA-DEATH, that affect how i feel towards Griefer's and pker :p . if i perma-death and need to create new char and play all over again, and so call am going for jobs like a smithy rather then a swordmen, getting killed by Griefer's are easy coz my swordskills wouldnt be as good as them. Maybe even 1-2 death will boreder me very much as i have to replay my character or even think of changing job.:D

[nobody4422]

i guess those "killers" unless they repeat killing me then i get bordered by them :D. Greifer's and pker are always in mmorpgs, itz just that how we gona control and restrict them(if we want to).
what if Ninja(player) ordered by leader or lord to kill someone? Ninja's do those dirty work and steal information from other people? Who do we determine they are not Greifer's? Maybe issue them a letter to prove he is killing by order?
but y not make it like Greifer's will suffer bad reputation(which they dun care i guess) every time they killed some innocence players and every time the reputation get worst till the SHOGUN order a "hunt" for this "killer" with a reward?
after getting caught they are to commit Sepuku and allow to make a new char with indication that he was a killer in his previous life and carries a poor reputation?.
Oh man think i got into the story hahaha :D.
should be saying y Griefer's border me so much hahaha. and i guess it depend what will happen if i get PERMA-DEATH, that affect how i feel towards Griefer's and pker :p . if i perma-death and need to create new char and play all over again, and so call am going for jobs like a smithy rather then a swordmen, getting killed by Griefer's are easy coz my swordskills wouldnt be as good as them. Maybe even 1-2 death will boreder me very much as i have to replay my character or even think of changing job.:D


I think that this is exactly how its going to work with karma = reputation.

[OdaNobunaga]

you are right brother :D and i bet Sykoi has somthing in his mind how to go about it now :-p

[Sykoi]

As with a good majority of all of the systems - we'll have to see what happens when we actually add them into the game, and fully test them.

So whatever we decide now may not work when we go into open beta.

[OdaNobunaga]

replying to Sykoi
that is true also :D. changes will be made in alpha and beta to make the game a better enviroment for all of us to play :P sometime stuff that was decided may not work out in the actual game, that is y alpha and beta are there for us to improve the playablility of the game. :D

[SunWuKong]

... A certain amount of it does in fact add a little excitment to the game. It keeps you on your toes, and makes you watch your back when traveling alone across long distances. Basically what Im trying to say is RPK is good, but only in small amounts.

The problem occurs when RPK/griefing becomes out of hand, when you cant leave the confines of the safe zone without expecting to get killed by a large pack of griefers. Its at this point when it starts to disrupt the flow of the game. Politics, trade, even legitimate battles and wars can be sidetracked when griefing is left unchecked. And this is the point when it starts to annoy me.Thanks nobody.

Tatsumaki will be implementing the following:
1. Karma system
2. Ability based on the player, not the character (no grinding for uber levels)
3. "special 'forces'"/GM's watching out for abuses.

Do you think these will adequately limit griefing?

[ToshiMaru]

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on what will happen once we go live. I mean, yea, the karma system is there, but like many other games, ***holes will treat like a bad boy rep instead. :loser:

[nobody4422]

Thanks nobody.

Tatsumaki will be implementing the following:
1. Karma system
2. Ability based on the player, not the character (no grinding for uber levels)
3. "special 'forces'"/GM's watching out for abuses.

Do you think these will adequately limit griefing?

Ive been giving it a lot of thought and I actually starting to think that it might.

Of course there is no way to know until the game hits beta, but for now. I guess Ill have some faith in the developers experience and abilities.


Oh and BTW #2 actually helps griefers.

[Xeus.Tsu]

Stand opposed.

We stand at war every moment of every day. Our cities are under siege of theifs, and drug dealers, and even those we offend. Many of us would prefer if the world wasn't this way, but it is. We are not really talking about the real world however, this is a game, why should it be modelled around a perfect world?

I stand infront of you ready for war, I am your enemy. I will not fight your war however, the war being fought will be on my terms, and I have the intention of doing as much damage as possible. I will be labelled a griefer, a loser, and possibly even a nazi bastard (Happened once, Eve Online). But please do not curse me for winning on a battlefield of my choosing, I had the advantage.

Through my experiences I know many of you will curse me reguardless, and would prefer a safer world where you can do what you wish without threat. I'm sure most of you have been in the position of being kiled or griefed from your point of view, and are quite unhappy because you weren't prepared for the encounter.

But like I said, why should I fight on your terms? Why should I give up such a tactical advantage such as surprise? And then when you can't find me with your army, curse me for not fighting your fight? This isn't your war, it's mine, and I am dedicated to winning, not loosing.

Now I do recognize the difference between my position and an actual griefer, who will take advantage of flaws within the game system to get away with murder. Having a character dedicated to griefing, or cheating within combat. This is wrong, this is not me. Even though many will label me the same. This should be met with the outmost scrutiny, and taken care with an absolute resolve.

My experiences through Eve Online where quite interesting and this conflict of griefing was largely portrayed onto my group of pirates and my style of play. The game had police, well these police kept me out of the core areas let alone being able to attack or kill anyone within these areas. Additionally anyone who comes within range of me I automatically pop up as a threat.

So I had to stick within the ass end of nowhere for my pirating abilities. Well that was fine because their were still enough players within these territories to raid. Many of these players liked to fly around afk, in ships unable to defend themselves. I am the bad guy but yet I'm not suppose to shoot you if your afk, or in a ship without weapons? Or allow you to attack me when you come back with 30 friends? I think not.

Through my experiences I do realize that the number of "griefers" (as labelled towards my characters) is greatly outnumbered by the number of "care bears". But please don't whine when you are unable to defeat those griefers, you need tactics. The ratio I have seen is atleast 50 to 1. 50 to 1, do you think I can hope to compete against a united group of 50 people, I think not. But yet I will attempt to prevail until the very end. Simply put, you need to be a better commander then me, you need to have better people then I do and this can be accomplished by having large numbers, if you are able to out maneuvre me I will loose, but don't expect me to make it easy.

I just hope that the developers of this game aren't inclined to simply follow the consensus of the forums and those who will simply complain when they feel they are treated unfairly. It is not the developers responsibility to protect you, you and your friends are responsible for protecting you.

I do not yet know my position within this game, whether be it commanding an army, or warring with the state, but I will be fighting someone at some point, of that I can guarentee you.

So I'm the bad guy, do you have a problem with that?

[Sykoi]

My thoughts exactly - we'll definitely try to make the world safe, but won't go against Player Killing (Obviously), assassinations, groups forming to do both of the above, and so on.

Granted, we'll try to lower the number of innocent killings greatly - and punish anyone who does kill innocents for no reason - but we'll allow it to an exist (Even if only slightly), since if we did not allow it to exist - a lot of the game's elements wouldn't work.
(Hiring guards, forming settlements, etc.)

[halberd388]

I've watched this game for the past month or so, checking the forums though I never registered, and this is a subject I have alot to say about.

PvP is something I find vital in a game, it creates competition, and I enjoy PvP myself. However, I'd like to share some experiances with you if I may, and I'll use World of Warcraft as the base.

Those most don't know it, Alliance outnumber the Horde by over 3 to 1, and this means even more high level characters (Which I know Tatsumaki won't really have levels or uber characters). That means more groups of top level characters running around on this PvP server, and more chances of being killed. I played Horde, because I like playing on the "looseing" side and try to help turn the tides. To get to the story, my guild and I were out questing, most of us in the mid 40's. A raid group (2-6 groups of 5) level 60 Alliance role through and slaughter us like rabbits, no big deal, we run back to our bodies and go about our merry way. Not even 2 minutes later, same raid group rolls back through and does it all over again. Well this has almost the whole Horde side running to the area to take them out. We had almost every single Horde player that was on at the time (All of 400 people) in that area trying to beat back the Alliance (Over 1,000 players) and we just could not do it. This in my opinion is greifing because the sides are way off kilter.

Another story is why I quit WoW to begin with. I was waiting for my guild near and instance, hiding behind a stone (I was a caster class, don't have the HP or armor to stand up to attacks). A level 60 rouge spots me and ganks me, no big deal. I run back to my body and see him standing over it, waiting for me to rez. I try to rez away from him, only to have him sprint, catch me, sap me, and kill me after he Emoted spits on me.

This goes on for nearly an hour, I died over 10 times. I'm sorry, I should not have to go away from my game because someone finds it funny to kill a character 20 levels lower than he is. I call a GM, the GM comes out, see's what's going on, and warps the player away so I can get back to questing. That SAME player hunts, not even 15 minutes later, kills me again and proceeds to camp my body once more. Call the GM, he comes out, warns the player about harassment, and warps him away. I go back to town to repair my messed up armor and equipment from dieing, and he slays me IN TOWN around all the guards (which mind you does nothing since he can disappear in a flash and the guards can't touch him). He camps my body there as well, invisible to the guards, and when I rez he kills me. I try to rez at the spirit healer (you get sick and loose 10% of your equipment health) and he kills me there. I contact the GM, he warps the player away, and the GM tells me just to log out. I got angery, I cussed out the GM, and what did I get? I got a warning and my account was suspended!

This just goes to show that even if you have a group of people watching out for others, there will still be loop holes. Granted, I might have deserved getting suspended for cussing out a GM for not doing more to the harassing player, but it was that one player that caused me to leave WoW for good. I like PvP, but I like a fair chance to get back at the PKer. If I have a fair chance and I still die, Kudos to the player for being good and I'll get him one day.

[Sykoi]

I, personally, will never let anything like this happen - I realize its a big problem, but there won't be any big reward for killing other people - enemy or not, so the chances of this happening are lowered quite a bit.

If someone targets the same player multiple times, we will either ban them or 'play with them' if you catch my drift ;)


But, like I said in all of my posts leading up to this post - we'll be playing the game ourselves, so if we see this happening - we'll try our best to fix it.
(Keep in mind we'll be playing both 'developer accounts' and 'normal accounts' - so we'll have first hand experience from both sides)

[halberd388]

Understood and I am appreciative of your confidence in something you are working hard to impliment. Weapons and Armor, Skills and Talents, character stats... I've never believed balancing these items was as important as putting fear into a PKer for dieing.

I have yet to read on most of the social/political systems being suggested, so I won't say much more until I read into it. However, I do hope that (as I previously posted on the Perma-Death thread) death means more than an annouance so PKers will think twice before slicing the head off the weaponless civilian character... AKA Griefing.

[Xeus.Tsu]

I've always liked the idea behind playing with the character when they do that mild level abuse. However, I do have an interesting story about some GM abuse I had. In Eve I was flying my ship through a system, and sure enough in eve I see in local chat, if your having trouble with pirates in this area, please join some channel so that we can work against them.

Well it took them about two days to figure out that we were monitoring their chat when they couldn't get the channel controls to work. At that time the channel controls were pretty much removed from the game and channels were joinable by anyone for whatever reason. So they bring a developer in to try and help them fix the developer controls. We were just shooting the breeze when sure enough he squelched me and my friend.

I was trying to talk to him to remedy the situation (without realizing no one could hear me) when he says Leave the channel or I will ban you from the game permanatly.

Now I don't want to mean that you guys will be like that, but I'm just relaying the story in order to make sure that you are aware that their are always two sides to a conflict.

As per your story halberd, I do agree with you that it was a very sad position to be in to be constantly ganked by a player like that and have them able to bypass the security settings like this. However, on the flipside, if I am warring with a group I don't want them to simply be able to call wolf if I am continually winning.

I'm hoping the way combat works in this game it's strategic enough that say defending territory is advantageous. I usually play with smaller dedicated groups in that, we don't fight our wars head on. We choose our battles wisely, and gank them when they aren't prepared, and when they're after us, well they aren't able to find us.

[halberd388]

I am enjoying these threads, with all the developer input I feel that they understand and feel our concerns instead of just giving a nod with a pre-set explination given by the community manager (no offense to Coms Managers, as the EOE's Mods are not puppets like Blizzard's and SoE's are).

I will put more confidence into how the devs plan to handle greifers, but not hinder PvP to the extent of making it unenjoyable or pointless. I may consider joining the alpha and supporting the team, however I need to read more and ask more questions.

To be back on topic, if combat was slower and more strategical (as I've read that it will be), combat will be fair. Ninja will be afoot, of course, but if they make ninjitsu as difficult to learn as it should be... Ninja will be far fewer than rurouni and samuri.

[SunWuKong]

halberd & xeus - great stories. Thanks!

halberd - from what I have seen with the people involved with the game, fairness is a very important part of who they are. I have no doubt that repeat griefers will be dealt with swiftly. :D

xeus - wonderful point. Just because you kill people, doesn't mean you're a griefer. This is "Land at War." There are going to be battles. Bandits and pirates should not be uncommon. I hope to see many independent factions form.

I hope people in this game realize the difference.
Killing - part of the game. It's going to happen. Do your best to avoid it (If you want).
Griefing - repeated harassment that stops someone from playing/enjoying the game. This will happen, too. But the GM's will stop it.

[Lejar]

Ok, of coarse Id get annoyed if I was killed for no apperent reason. But, like in ancient Japan (anywhere, actually!) there were highwaymen and hitmen. So, I think that people should be able to kill some one, but I tink that maybe players should have rankings on how long they've played, or how many skills they have learned. And then make it so that you cant kill players so a low learned skill amount, or something to that effect. Now, about giant family feuds...they have occured in the real world many times...and I, for one, would love to get in some mass killing action. ^^ My thoughts.

[halberd388]

You might change your mind if your character dieing means you'll have to create a new one. :) (Perma-Death)