[Poll] Death [Archive] - Eyes Out Entertainment Forums

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Sykoi
05-10-2005, 08:40 AM
What death system would you like to see ingame?
(Death systems are from the Death article: http://www.tatsumaki-online.com/wiki/index.php/Death)

connick
05-10-2005, 09:17 AM
I'm thinking perhaps a mix between the Injury-induced Sleep and Spirit system. I think permadeath would mean permadeath for the game itself, so a slightly less realistic system in-game will likely be the most realistic in real life application. (See my post on Death. Then maybe make it so as a spirit you could attempt to guide someone to your body?)

Isuiln Fellblade
05-10-2005, 11:34 AM
I personally don't think Spirit is harsh enough... the only penalty is that you have to take a bit of time to get back to your body? And this also brings up the issue of griefing and corpse-camping. If you have to return to the same spot to come back to life, someone can just sit there and continue killing you over and over until you log off and wait for them to leave. This would also make battles last until one side gave up... a side's almost finished, when lo and behold, half of their army stands back up! Not very realistic....

Sykoi
05-10-2005, 11:36 AM
Actually we will NOT allow that - the corpse may be transported back to a certain area, and you may have to stay out of your body for a certain amount of time.

Spirit may be a mixture between itself and injury induced sleep.

SunWuKong
05-10-2005, 01:26 PM
I would like to see Injury-Induced Sleep leading to Reincarnation.Allow people to attempt to keep their characters for a while.
If they die frequently (~3 times/week?), then their character has been injured too much and dies.
Possessions are inherited (or forfeit to the local government if no heir stated).
If an heir wants to give back their gain, that's their choice. No automatic reclaiming by the new character.

If Spirit is going to be used, I would want it to be restricted severly. Able to spend too much time invisibly would basically be giving people ultimate spy power.
Restrict spirits from entering certain areas might help. Or, not letting them move too far from their corpse?
For a little "fun" and adding the folklore aspect - what about having Spirit happen randomly? That way it wouldn't be mundane.
person 1: "Hey, I was a ghost!"
person 2: "You're crazy!"

Camjpn
05-10-2005, 03:09 PM
I think injury induced sleep would be cool, cause if you just lost against a wolves you wouldnt just sprint off and say "o well" :D, and it would make everyone a little more careful knowing that if they lose they will have to stay of for a bit

Tekashi
05-10-2005, 03:12 PM
I like the injury induced sleep idea myself...I dont like other because they are a bit harsh and this one seems to be perfect. Besides ide love to find someone wandering injured...then i could help them but if its someone i dont prefer, they feel my blade. But mybe you can corperate this with something else like if you are injured for to long make them re-incarnate or something.

nobody4422
05-10-2005, 06:09 PM
To be perfectly honest, I dont really like any of them alone. Perma-Death everytime you die is just plain too harsh and would really suck the fun out of the game. Reincarnation, would just be too much of a pain to remake your character everytime you die. And the other two mean there is essentially no penalty for dieing, and so kill any RP in combat.

What I would like to see is combining the possibility Perma-Death with KO (Injury Induced Sleep). Ive already posted the details on the [Q]Death thread so I wont post them again.

If I had to vote for one of them though, Injury Induced Sleep would be the one. One thing though, the time out needs to be between 10-30 minutes. I play again now where the death timeout is about 10 minutes and even though it sucks to wait, it really isnt that much of a deterrant. On the other hand 30 min would just be way too long to wait.

ToshiMaru
05-10-2005, 06:18 PM
Injury-Induced Sleep is a good idea, but if it means that a good samaritin would come by and help you, now thats just almost impossible.

What if nobody is nearby, and your waiting for hours and hours, or what about if the area you died in, is a secret location only you know of? What then? :Eyecrazy: Even if Injury-Induced Sleep succeeds, i strongly suggest a review, and discussion of this idea.

Lodeclaw
05-10-2005, 06:20 PM
I would like to see injury-induced sleep with options. Either stay and wait for a rescuer, or return to a hospital or spawn point of some sort and receive a stonger penalty. Character strength and stamina, etc. could be permanently decreased after death due to injury, which would force the character to retrain in order to regain his or her lost strength.

BrainBandAid
05-10-2005, 09:11 PM
I guess I'm going against the crowd here, but I think injury induced sleep is very unrealistic. Perma-death is too harsh, but what's the motivation for not getting into stupid fights? "Oh, I didn't really die... that guy just imagined his katana cutting my head off" or "You perform seppuku by driving the two feet of steel into your gut, but miss all your organs completely and fall into a deep sleep..."

This "cheapens" the game. People would run around fighting all the time because all they have to lose is five minutes. And what happens if you never heal yourself/get healed? I could walk around the game for days in a permanent state of near death.

People don't like perma-death because they think they're losing thier character. But what are you actually losing? There's no XP, (I think) you should lose whatever you have on you just like in reality, or you can go find it yourself. There aren't (many) learned skills to lose; the combat skills should stay with you.

If you re-incarnate, you'd be the same person, just "reborn" (how do we enter the game, by the way??). You'd still have access to your home, your "accounts", your secret stashs, maybe even your learned skills.

If you're worried about recognizing people, maybe you could have a list available to look at that lists the names of the players past "lives".

OdaNobunaga
05-10-2005, 09:57 PM
hi guys glad to have this topic out here, but i actualy agree to injury-induced sleep but i guess some other points have to be added.
1) not much player will realy want to create a new character with new stat all over again(keeping some old stats and omg what if i have played for few months?)
2)perma-death will be a set back to players who are trying to "test" the playablility of this game. No one like to die and lose every thing and start all over again. what if new players came in and attack another player in groups? example 4player killing 1player? he is bound to die for sure. If he is gona meet these people all the time and get killed and start all over i he will sure to quit or complain.(some people do that chasing and killing the same person (dont like the name for example) non-stop where ever they go).
3)injury-induced sleep, maybe a choice should be given weather player wants to go to hospital or continue his journey or return home.
4)spirit, if am keen on killing that player again i will guess which is the nearest temple or hospital in which he will ressurect to and kill him again unless it is non pvp there.
sugesstion, :D maybe we can have a death system like
first death 25% down of all stats for 5-10mins,
sec death 35%down or all stats for 10-20mins,
3rd death 50% down of all stats for 20-30mins. if he is killed again within the down time of his death. death after the down time will be consider first death, and if the players die for a certain numbers of time(yet to be decided) he will be consider dead and transport to nearest temple or hospital to recover and pvp deactivated for a certain time like 30mins he cant kill or be killed? Of coz at every death there will be option for player to choose to ressurect back at same place or go back to family or temple or hospital? in the end i guess i combined the spirit and injury-induced sleep together :p
feel free to correct me as maybe i had some points already stated by other players. :D

connick
05-10-2005, 10:23 PM
What if nobody is nearby, and your waiting for hours and hours, or what about if the area you died in, is a secret location only you know of? What then?

Have a finite respawn timer of about 20 minutes. If anyone finds you and heals you before the timer is up then you don't have to wait the whole time.

Kingsama
05-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Theoretically speaking i like the perma death, but i assume that you all would like to make some money off this game right? i can see that scaring away many many players. I am not saying you should bow to the masses and sacrifice you goals in the game, just that i can see many of the people that would really be into this game pushed back by too harsh a penalty, such as perma death. Again i like the idea, but i cant see many more than the hard core RPGers wanting that. Not to mention that perma death could be exploited by fake accounts.

Personally i would like to see a combining of the spirit system and the slow recovery. With the spirit idea you capture a piece of the Medievil culture which i like alot, and with the slow recovery you get a nice deturrent for mass murder. Perhaps your spirit is spawned in a certain area and you must then track down your body, once you get back in it you are in a permanent state of wounded, perhaps with very very slow healing, until you get treatment.

SmokeDragon
05-10-2005, 11:04 PM
My vote is for the Spirit death system. I think it would work out great and still keep the games role playing in check.

Sykoi
05-11-2005, 12:56 AM
Keep in mind that perma-death will be in the 'forced roleplaying server' (If you break roleplaying in this server, you're banned, there will be no global chat, etc.)

Kuraku Hideaki
05-11-2005, 05:06 AM
I quite like the re-incarnation system. It gives a feel of "You learn from your mistakes" It doesn't neccisarily mean you have to create a whole new personality, mabe just add a few traits. This way, you can play apart of your very own mini-family. After you die, you become your son, then your grandson, etc. Each one has an added trait and extra skills from past experiences with his former self/family member. This could also take in a new 'inherit' feature. In your current character, you can either approve of items that will go straight to you again, and some that will either be dropped or given to someone else.

This also gave me a new idea, an 'Honor-like' system, where if your former self dies and was well known, your current self recieves benefits from other players, the economy, etc. Veteran players who are well known and have saved many lives might become 'Heroes', and when they die their new self may have a high status in the game, family or government.

I think i covered many things i thought of here. I still think reincarnation is the way to go. Mabe there could be a way where injury-induced sleep could find its way here?

Osumi
05-11-2005, 05:20 AM
I like a variation of Permadeath and skill loss.

At the first death you should lose one skill or whatever talents will be considered in this game. For example, you would lose the ability to perform a certain combo or something. This skill/talent/ whatever you wanna call it will be randomly selected and removed from your character. And your character will be notified of what happened.

The second death would be the loss of two skills. The loss of these skills or talents would serve as a type of physical recovery. as if your character did not die, but was injured so badly that they need to work back up to the level they once were.

On the third death you Die. ReRoll, new character.


This system would hurt the players who die, but would also make people think before they attack someone. It is not so painful that a single mistake would ruin the game.

Maybe you could recive lives as a reward for being in the game for a while. Something like getting an extra life for being in for 3 months. and another at 6 months. that way the older characters would still feel the same pain when they die, but they would be able to keep playing their character if they play them smartly.

The number of lives could vary. Maybe giving new players 5 lives to start with but having a higher toll with each death. New players die more as they try to figure out the game. Two free deaths without a penalty would be a nice start, but after that I think a penalty should apply.

-Osumi

Racoon of Hell
05-11-2005, 08:10 AM
I think I still prefer Sun's idea in the past forum...It was a injury-induced sleep type of death, with penalties. Sadly I don't remember all of them...but there was damage to property, due to the wait one had to do at the hospital. Unless probably you had a co-owner to your house, which would have taken care of it, while you were "away" healing. There was also gold loss, and a few items lost to whoever killed you, if they pick them up of course. But I just thought, why is it that we focus so much on punishing the person that died??? I mean, not all of the people that get killed is because they started a fight. Though...it's quite impossible to separate a deserved and a not deserved death. >.> But I don't think forgetting techniques would be good either, because even if it's still an amount of time to recuperate, it doesn't mean he will begin to forget things. One can remember such things for a long time. Making a "3 life" death would be, in my opinion, bad. Since I know that if I reach that last life, I'm gonna be paranoid, probably even hide from all of civilization, which would probably not make the game too fun. I don't know if you know...but 3 months would be like 30 dollars of pay lol. So to get 2 lifes back you need like 60 dollars or so.

P.S. Sorry for the long post x.x got a bit carried away. Sun, if you remember your post in the last forum, could you post it? If it's ok with you, of course.

Shinoku
05-11-2005, 08:12 AM
I would like to see Injury-Induced Sleep leading to Reincarnation.Allow people to attempt to keep their characters for a while.
If they die frequently (~3 times/week?), then their character has been injured too much and dies.
Possessions are inherited (or forfeit to the local government if no heir stated).
If an heir wants to give back their gain, that's their choice. No automatic reclaiming by the new character.

If Spirit is going to be used, I would want it to be restricted severly. Able to spend too much time invisibly would basically be giving people ultimate spy power.
Restrict spirits from entering certain areas might help. Or, not letting them move too far from their corpse?
For a little "fun" and adding the folklore aspect - what about having Spirit happen randomly? That way it wouldn't be mundane.
person 1: "Hey, I was a ghost!"
person 2: "You're crazy!"I totallly agree on this. He took the words from my mouth and posted them ^^

Sykoi
05-11-2005, 08:26 AM
My views on perma-death are basically: All or nothing.
If we're going to have characters be deleted at all because of death - it should be the pure perma-death system, not a variation of it.

However, there are plenty of ways to follow Sun's idea without the dreaded thought of perma-death.

I'm for the injury induced sleep / recovery - if a player dies too much from the same wound, that wound will take a very long time to heal before they can do anything too demanding (Fighting) - this would enforce everything below:
a) Farming
b) Hospitals
c) Restaurants
d) The economy (As a result of all of the above)
e) Fishing
f) Other tradeskills
g) Starting festivals
h) Helping other players
i) Forming families
j) Forming towns
k) Forming alliances with other families
...And the list goes on.

What do you do when you're hurt really bad, and in the hospital? You hone your other skills - you help other people - you try to pass the time any way you can - and gradual injury induced sleep / downtime would be similar to this.



We could possibly work on something like this:
-If you get killed from a blow to the head, your intelligence will be lowered and you will be passed out for awhile, unable to move very much until you heal
-If you die from a leg wound, you won't be able to walk for awhile and will have to work on getting on your feet (Slowly)
-If you die from arm wounds, well... Obviously anything that uses your arms will be greatly damaged.
-And your chest - you won't be able to do anything that requires a lot of blood pumping through you / that makes you breath heavier (Lots of physical activity)


For 30 minutes or so, you won't be able to do anything - but you'll slowly get better.
After 4-5 hours, you'll be able to fight and such again, but won't be as good
After a day, you'll be almost completely healed but the damaged area will still be very weak.
After a week, your wound will be completely healed and you can do anything you want.


If you get hurt, or die from the same thing (or in the same area), you'll take twice as long to recover; if you get hurt or die from it AGAIN, twice as long again (Four times as long) and so on.

Mano
05-11-2005, 08:32 AM
i voted for reincarnation,

my thoughts about perma death system is that putting some roleplay in death can mean the new char may get some "gift" from the former character.

Since not many games actually features real perma death system, i guess its hard for the team to know what would be good or not,

i do think the reincarnation would follow a somewhat religion that can give some roleplay aspect, that should'nt be put away. Since the death is not something really "cool" (if i can say that) in a game the way would be to be something mixed between some hard aspect and others better.

loosing most possession (except if the person gave to a lawyer or somethin) as exemple, but gainin the house, or former char's famous saber / fishstick / whatever, or gainin some bonuses in some skill,

well i do think reincarnation is a cool way to go, i hope we'll see it released :)

Racoon of Hell
05-11-2005, 08:57 AM
Well, now I guess I'm going for Sykoi's idea of injury induced sleep recovery. It seems fair enough to me.

connick
05-11-2005, 09:02 AM
For 30 minutes or so, you won't be able to do anything - but you'll slowly get better.
After 4-5 hours, you'll be able to fight and such again, but won't be as good
After a day, you'll be almost completely healed but the damaged area will still be very weak.
After a week, your wound will be completely healed and you can do anything you want.

Do you mean a week in real life or a week in game? I think that a week in real life would be too much. I'm all for realism, but I wouldn't sacrifice that much gameplay.

I do like the idea of your cause of death affecting your recovery. Something like a recovery period would be a great alternative to a long respawn time. As you said, you could sit around and play Go or Shogi at the hospital. Maybe hobble around and cook meals for other patients. I think all the threads on death are starting to take a more solid form. Especially since I believe we can close the lid on permadeath; I don't think anyone is that big on realism.

Sykoi
05-11-2005, 09:23 AM
Well after a day you can do whatever you want, you just have to be careful - theres no real sacrifice there, you just have to make sure you don't get too injured :P

Also keep in mind that during the week you'll be slowly healing - so after 3 1/2 days, you'll be 50% recovered; and even then, it'd take a lot to kill you.

BrainBandAid
05-11-2005, 06:17 PM
Is the karma idea out the window? If you kill someone in cold blood, and then you die, you have more harsh consequences than the inocent guy you killed? That's fair. And what kind of stats are we talking about losing? This is starting to sound more and more like a standard RPG every day... [whine]


And what about seppuku by the way?

OdaNobunaga
05-11-2005, 08:17 PM
My views on perma-death are basically: All or nothing.
If we're going to have characters be deleted at all because of death - it should be the pure perma-death system, not a variation of it.

However, there are plenty of ways to follow Sun's idea without the dreaded thought of perma-death.

I'm for the injury induced sleep / recovery - if a player dies too much from the same wound, that wound will take a very long time to heal before they can do anything too demanding (Fighting) - this would enforce everything below:
a) Farming
b) Hospitals
c) Restaurants
d) The economy (As a result of all of the above)
e) Fishing
f) Other tradeskills
g) Starting festivals
h) Helping other players
i) Forming families
j) Forming towns
k) Forming alliances with other families
...And the list goes on.

What do you do when you're hurt really bad, and in the hospital? You hone your other skills - you help other people - you try to pass the time any way you can - and gradual injury induced sleep / downtime would be similar to this.



We could possibly work on something like this:
-If you get killed from a blow to the head, your intelligence will be lowered and you will be passed out for awhile, unable to move very much until you heal
-If you die from a leg wound, you won't be able to walk for awhile and will have to work on getting on your feet (Slowly)
-If you die from arm wounds, well... Obviously anything that uses your arms will be greatly damaged.
-And your chest - you won't be able to do anything that requires a lot of blood pumping through you / that makes you breath heavier (Lots of physical activity)


For 30 minutes or so, you won't be able to do anything - but you'll slowly get better.
After 4-5 hours, you'll be able to fight and such again, but won't be as good
After a day, you'll be almost completely healed but the damaged area will still be very weak.
After a week, your wound will be completely healed and you can do anything you want.


If you get hurt, or die from the same thing (or in the same area), you'll take twice as long to recover; if you get hurt or die from it AGAIN, twice as long again (Four times as long) and so on.

yeah i see some similar points from wat i posted on post number 12 :P

Osumi
05-11-2005, 08:33 PM
I prefer permadeath over excessive wait times. And by excessive I mean anything that could take more than two days til you are fully healed. Atleast with permadeath you can get right back into playing the game again as soon as you feel like starting over.

I would understand if it took 30 minutes til you could leave the hospital and then maybe 2 hours til you were moving at normal walking speed with half health. and then maybe another hour or two and you would be fine. No more than 5 hours of downtime or I'll lose my mind. Atleast not on movement and major stats. If you want to add a penalty for a few days on some of the minor stats, I understand. But I'm not gonna pay to sit in a hospital for a week. I'd rather just flat out die.

-Osumi

OdaNobunaga
05-11-2005, 08:46 PM
I prefer permadeath over excessive wait times. And by excessive I mean anything that could take more than two days til you are fully healed. Atleast with permadeath you can get right back into playing the game again as soon as you feel like starting over.

I would understand if it took 30 minutes til you could leave the hospital and then maybe 2 hours til you were moving at normal walking speed with half health. and then maybe another hour or two and you would be fine. No more than 5 hours of downtime or I'll lose my mind. Atleast not on movement and major stats. If you want to add a penalty for a few days on some of the minor stats, I understand. But I'm not gonna pay to sit in a hospital for a week. I'd rather just flat out die.

-Osumi
i agree with you that down time should not exceed more then 30mins :D i would go mad too if i keep getting down time and cant play the game waiting for hours or days to pass :D

KazeKuroi
05-12-2005, 12:06 AM
Permenent Death is just to harsh, that means no room for mistake from a new player, leading to discouragement amongst players, then the work goes to waste.
Reincarnation, this I believe is more Mystical then Realistic, and again, you lose all your work and all your effort, and can become discouraged. Death can be an easy event to meet. Although Type B personalities might not mind any of the two mentioned previosly, your Type A would and majority of the world is type a.
Injured induced sleep. This one seems more logical, but when it comes down to having your head cut off whats going to happen? You surely can't walk yourself to a hospital for treatment either... I believe maybe a chance of rescue here, 30 seconds in this faze with an herbal remedy that will give you an oppertunity to be reserected. A gift from the goddess of Luck and Wisdom, Benten. But with use of this resurection administered by someone else, Your body will be plagued with great illnesses, ect. going to the self induced recovery system.
Spirit will be the next step if you are not givin an herbal rememdy within a 30 sec time frame, Thing is you shouldn't be able to enter combat once again as mentioned previously. For several days, which would be a bit nicer if their days weren't in real time but like 24 days of the games time is equivelant to 3 days of our time. 3h=1day

But then again what I am saying really isn't thought through, please dun rebuttle it. =p

Kuraku Hideaki
05-12-2005, 02:21 AM
Kaze, your points are interesting.

But there must be some way, where we can import death where you actully DIE. I agree on injury induced sleep, but like msny before me have said, what happens if your head is cut off? I think this is why i like reincarnation. It sort of goes with karma, family, religion etc.

But you could also try having different death systems on different servers to start with, then have a vote. I would highly reccomend this, although it might take a while.

PS. sorry about my spelling. We had a game of soccer today and i headed the ball on the wrong part of my head. 3 hours later and i still have a headache.

connick
05-12-2005, 07:16 AM
A lot of people seem to think that Injury Induced Sleep is unrealistic and are opting for Reincarnation. I think reincarnation is a lot less realistic and would be harder to apply in a fair way. The reincarnation sounds somewhat Freaky Friday-esque. Imagine me at Sykoi's funeral... A little boy walks up to me and says, "Psst! Connick, it's me, Sykoi!" I'd be more apt to believe that Sykoi's head was sutured back on and that he barely survived than that he somehow transgressed into a new body. I can assuredly say that the only way to achieve realism is through permadeath. And since I don't think anyone really wants that you have to decide which unrealistic system of death is the most fair, simple, and playable. For me the answer is obviously mortal injury followed by recovery, perhaps with aspects of the Spirit idea included somehow.

KazeKuroi
05-12-2005, 03:16 PM
Oh also, Make certian items parishable on death. for penalty.

ToshiMaru
05-12-2005, 03:30 PM
Dude, you guys keep forgetting that Tatsumaki is about TRYING to be realistic, not BEING PERFECTLY realistic. Even if we try our best, games just won't cut being realistic, so Injury-Induced Sleep is the most logical method for now.

I mean, we really do need at least some sort of fantasy to help pull off this game. Just remember that pure realism in a game just cant be done. :sly:

Tekashi
05-12-2005, 03:32 PM
Oh also, Make certian items parishable on death. for penalty.

wow why not just have them damaged? You guys are suggesting way to much the games gonna be impossible like this.

ashley
05-12-2005, 04:01 PM
its an RPG, its not like theres anything to win.

Life is impossible.

Tekashi
05-12-2005, 04:12 PM
its an RPG, its not like theres anything to win.

Life is impossible.

Yes but you need to understand i play game to relax not to get tied up!

ashley
05-12-2005, 04:16 PM
Honestly, if you were really role playing, and part of it was kidnapping. You'd be like a little kid. Wrap a rope around their wrists lightly, and you both go along with it.

I love little kids. Omgwtf you can't have a bullet proof vest!

I seriously don't know if people actually do that though. Little kids are so much better.

EDIT: This is the Death thread? Why is this the death thread?

Tekashi
05-12-2005, 04:18 PM
well whatever but i dont wanna get tied up to me thats no fun.

Lodeclaw
05-12-2005, 06:26 PM
I understand the desire to make Tatsumaki realistic, but more importantly it has to be playable, and people have to enjoy it. If it isn't either of these things, it won't sell and it will be a failure. People get attached to their characters and will not accept permadeath. They will pay for one month and then quit because they no longer have the character that they wanted. In my opinion, permadeath and reincarnation are absolutely unacceptable. If I am not able to maintain a single character throughout the entire gaming experience, I will abandon Tatsumaki.

Fun is more important than realism.

ToshiMaru
05-12-2005, 07:05 PM
Fun is more important than realism.

You guys all HEARD THAT!!! I support it too!!! BTW, remember those old school dailogs saying that playing with friends online is way funner than playing a static video game? Lets try to stay on the guide lines. :)

OdaNobunaga
05-12-2005, 10:54 PM
i guess playable is very important to make a game sucessfull. but realistic in Tatsumaki has always been stated clearly:D hahaha and in the end i may sugess a combination of spirit and injury Induced Sleep, it is good , we just need to modify it with more option to make it better. :cool:

regading head been chop off...... how do you determine that? i guess it is the programming of the game. if griefer's after you maybe we can set that he can only injure you till you cannot move(injury Induced Sleep) or die without having your body parts cut off.
having head cut off will only be when Suicide/Sepuku and that must result in perma-death(realistic) but will recairn as another character. if his previous life was because or bad reputation that he commit Suicide/Sepuku, he will have a low reputation at the start of his new char, letting him to chose to recover his family honour or continue his bad reputation.:D

connick
05-13-2005, 07:26 AM
Honestly, if you were really role playing, and part of it was kidnapping. You'd be like a little kid. Wrap a rope around their wrists lightly, and you both go along with it.

Absolutely Ashley! I play a character in a live-action roleplaying game and one of the most exciting and fun experiences I had was being kidnapped. We roleplayed my horrible torture and the daring efforts of another player to rescue me. It was sweet as hell. Half of the fun of roleplaying is being on top of the game. The other half is being on the bottom and roleplaying your valiant struggle to the top!

SunWuKong
05-13-2005, 01:03 PM
Try to stay on-topic.
There is another thread on kidnapping.
:)

Osumi
05-14-2005, 05:34 AM
I am still a fan of a recovery system where you have wounds that will heal over time. Not too much time, but a few hours at max. It will stop players from rushing right back into battle and will take enough time that death still hurts. Maybe even some item loss would be cool. But that is your call.

The goal isn't to make this death system so realistic that players stop wanting to play and have fun. The goal is simply to make death painful and to keep players from rushing into a battle right after they have died.

This simple system solves both problems.

I am still a fan of permadeath, but it isn't for everyone. To be honest if I want permadeath I can simply delete my character after death. I prefer to give everyone an option so they can enjoy gameplay. This game doesn't revolve around a select few hardcore RPers. We still need a player base or it won't be fun for anyone.

-Osumi

Xeus.Tsu
05-15-2005, 01:03 AM
I would like to give my position on this and try best to explain my position based on relevance against other ideas, since I have not yet seen a solution that I have simply liked. My position is more of a rebutle against other's, but with that perhaps a suitable position can be worked out.

First of Sykoi, I thought I was harsh, but I do feel that your system is far too harsh in some regaurds. If I am not mistaken we're talking about a massive game world, where players can follow any path and even though dieing should be discouraged, alot of combat will be between players, which would result in many deaths. And sometimes, people dieing rather rapidly when fighting a war against an utterly brutal oppressor, how can you make them wait a week before they are once again up to par.

First off I would like to say that it is simply bad game design to stop a player from playing the game. Now, don't take me as saying I want to be very leniant on the players, give them hell but do it in a way that they are Number One able to still play and Number Two still able to put up a fight.

I will probably get back to this later in this post, gonna quickly cover a few other methods and then come back to my overall thughts on the system.

Simple Resurection seems to as many of you know have the failing of putting no loss in death. You simply begin again with no loss.

The apprentice approach as said in another post is intriguing but I also belive it has a major flaw and that is simply that the Apprentice is NOT you. How should an apprentice really cary on your own life, that character has their own life and it's just a way of implementing a different set of death penalities. Also when you die does your character change to look like the apprentice or does the apprentice character change to look like you? How can this character possibly hold the same relationships you do?

The whole insurance idea on your character and items tends to be a bad choice, sure it's more realistic, but it's a system of potential exploits to be taken advantage of. (Eve online had to reset all chracters two days into release due to an insurance scam)

The World of Warcraft spirit approach I find to be somewhat weak, you gotta run across the land to recover your body. It's just a death waiting penalty without looking like making you wait for respawn.

Alright my analysis of these other systems was a little weaker then I expected, it's going on 3:00 AM here so I'm getting a wee bit tired, but I'll get on to my proposal of the system.


There defintly needs to be an option such as you can just release your spirit and respawn at your house (or a designated spawn point) with a set of restrictions of course and maybe a wait time of a minute or two, and atleast will still be following a game design of lets not stop the player from playing.

Secondly, any items or equipment belong to the instance of the body, if you want those items back you gotta go get them, simple as that. I don't expect it will be hard to aquire weapons and armor, and clothing and anything else you may want to carry. So you have items reserved for yourself at the respawn point in the event that you do die. So if you are carrying important documents, or your favourite weapon, you gotta go recover it. Meaning in which your opponent can loot everything on your body.

Thirdly, if you are do a mission or something of the sort where living through it is important, you fail and maybe loose influence with that particular character since you indeed failed them.

Fourth, You should have a semi permanent death state that cripples your abilities for a time being, where you in essence need to retrain in order to improve yourself, which would happen at a much quicker rate then the training in the first place. You should not gain anything from the battle you lost. I do like the idea of certain areas of your body being more afflicted then others, such as if when you a slain in the leg, you run slower, or in the arms you can't wield a sword as well, etc.

Fifth, I believe that in a battle type situation you should simply be struck down, and the state of death is incurred. You loose a little bit of your abilities as stated above temporarily where you have to rapidly retrain them, but aren't rendered completely useless. After the battle your struck down character can essentially be placed on it's knees and have it's head chopped off by the oppsing player or team. If the opposing team decides to do this a more harsh set of penalities is placed against your character, where as if you or your team recover your character the penalities to you are observed to a lesser extent.

Sixth, if not choosing to kill off the character as in the fith part, the character can be released or captured. If captured, the character can then be taken to a town or viliage to be learned from, and have some of the skill and abilities be taught and studied by the winning area. Of course not infringing on the other players game since they will in a sense have another instance of their own character. This could add a real interesting dynamic to pvp and wars, of capturing soldiers or leaders and learning from them.

Seventh, a sense of morality could be introduced, where as a defeat or win would effect how each character feels about themself. This could also rub off on those around them and participating within the armies and battles. If a military leader is "killed" in battle or captured by the enemy, a negative morality would be induced onto the army effecting everyone to a small reguard. Where as a large number of consequitive losses could have the large scale effect a number of people would like to see. Morality has a huge effect on an armies in real life, continued defeat, and loosing battles you are expected to win can crush an army. (Kingdom and Heaven is a very good movie)

Eigth, a dynamic of prisoner exchange or paying for the release of leaders could lead to having less of the above death penalties but still have the incurred morality problems as stated in the later points. Holding a family leader ransom type of idea. (This idea would normally fail because you don't want to stop the player being held from playing)

Ninth, after your respawn some sort of high penalty should be incurred for rapid deaths to avoid zerging battles of respawn run in and die. Guild Wars does this well with the death penalty of -15% every death. When your at -60% it's very unforgiving. When a battle is lost, it should be lost, and a player should spawn either far enough away that he can't get back to the battle quickly or be kept away in some reguard so that a battle is done, and perhaps a seperate battle happens at a later time.

Tenth, prisoner execution, executing prisoner's to give a morale boost to your army if a ransom is not met. Sort of inspire a morale type boost within more of your men by having a public execution as opposed too a battlefield execution.

I feel that this type of death system, even though somewhat complex, meets all the requirements of making the system harsh, but without violating any Game Design "rules". A player suffer the penalty of the equipment and item loss, ability loss to an extend, but isn't rendered completly incapable of fighting or defending themselves. A notorious player makes a mistake, and then is completely devastated for months on end due to continuous ganking? Also alot of this is towards gup battles with the notion of group benefits and losses, which should in essence add a dynamic to protection of leaders while attacking opposing leaders.

Fame, could also lead towards morality, if you are infamous for your military abilities on either side of the spectrum.

I would keep in mind that this is meant to be more a relative guide, being based on my thoguhts over the last hour or two after reading others posts and putting my ideas in writing. I've tryed to explain reasoning towards my arguments and if you have any questions post or pm me and I may edit the post respectfully. I do feel death will be common enough place in this game especially with wars between groups of people that a completely harsh system may be too much, and drive players away from this game.

Sykoi
05-15-2005, 08:04 AM
Erm actually you can fight after a few hours, the week is just to wait til the wound fully closes - until then, its just a weak spot.
And combat will be a very small part of the game - there are many other things to do in Tatsumaki.


And just for your information - the spirit approach I listed, no one got from WoW, or any other game for that matter - it was just a crazy idea DeXtrose and I came up with when discussing possible death systems about a year ago.


The idea is a bit lengthy, but is basically what the injury-induced sleep system is like. (Minus a few key features, of course)

Xeus.Tsu
05-15-2005, 08:26 AM
Erm actually you can fight after a few hours, the week is just to wait til the wound fully closes - until then, its just a weak spot.
And combat will be a very small part of the game - there are many other things to do in Tatsumaki.


And just for your information - the spirit approach I listed, no one got from WoW, or any other game for that matter - it was just a crazy idea DeXtrose and I came up with when discussing possible death systems about a year ago.


The idea is a bit lengthy, but is basically what the injury-induced sleep system is like. (Minus a few key features, of course)

I must have mis-interpreted your meaning in that I read it was you have to wait 30 minutes before you can do anything. It also sounded as if Combat would not even be a viable option for atleast a day due to the weakness incurred. Now it's not that I meant to imply that combat was the only thing to do, but I don't think a fight will just be two people fighting then whoever dies runs of and knits for 3 days. The best example is Guild Wars, when you die your ressurected, and so on which has a limit to -60%. Well when your at -60% you get utterly destroyed over and over again, even though you CAN fight.

Also by the WoW spirit approach I didn't mean to imply that it came from WoW, just that it is similar to WoW's spirit approach so I could use the example for my reasoning behind not particularily liking that Idea, my apologies once again.

I suppose the similarities are their, but I do feel it has some unqiue items making the post worth posting.

halberd388
05-16-2005, 12:35 AM
Hmm, I've read most of the posts, seen the ideas and read the Wiki.

I enjoy knowing that a perma-death system is being considered, and I hope it is implimented. I've played so many games that do not have a system to make death mean something, and it really is time for a change.

I dislike the spirit system, this still makes players feel dying is not big deal. Money can be earned again, items can be aquired once more.

Knock Out is something I've always wanted to see in a game, it's more realistic.

Combining the Knock Out and Re-incarnation systems would hold closer to the realistic nature and roleplaying aspect that the devs are trying to reach. Once a player is knocked out, the enemy (be it player or creature) would choose to kill the player's character. Of course most natural creatures would get bored after the character falls over bleeding, and would discontinue attacking. Honorable players would not finish off a fallen foe who couldn't not defend themself.

Death would happen seldom, but once it happens it's done. Perhaps a "spirit" system would be interesting, as posted by SunWuKong, where sometimes the dead character would rise as a spirit near their corpse or in their most frequented place to "haunt".

A combination of the elements from all 3 would work out nicely.

Tekashi
05-16-2005, 03:55 PM
Hmm, I've read most of the posts, seen the ideas and read the Wiki.

I enjoy knowing that a perma-death system is being considered, and I hope it is implimented. I've played so many games that do not have a system to make death mean something, and it really is time for a change.

I dislike the spirit system, this still makes players feel dying is not big deal. Money can be earned again, items can be aquired once more.

Knock Out is something I've always wanted to see in a game, it's more realistic.

Combining the Knock Out and Re-incarnation systems would hold closer to the realistic nature and roleplaying aspect that the devs are trying to reach. Once a player is knocked out, the enemy (be it player or creature) would choose to kill the player's character. Of course most natural creatures would get bored after the character falls over bleeding, and would discontinue attacking. Honorable players would not finish off a fallen foe who couldn't not defend themself.

Death would happen seldom, but once it happens it's done. Perhaps a "spirit" system would be interesting, as posted by SunWuKong, where sometimes the dead character would rise as a spirit near their corpse or in their most frequented place to "haunt".

A combination of the elements from all 3 would work out nicely.

Sykoi has a system already and i think if you wanna play at that extent you may wanna play on the dedicated RP server. Your suggestions are blunt but im sure sykoi can answer better than I.

Hiroshi
05-16-2005, 06:26 PM
I voted for the self induced sleep/recovery system, even if the wait is that long, if it proves to be a hassle they can always change it, and i'd much rather have a weak spot for a week than lose my character forever. :cool:

halberd388
05-16-2005, 07:46 PM
Sykoi has a system already and i think if you wanna play at that extent you may wanna play on the dedicated RP server. Your suggestions are blunt but im sure sykoi can answer better than I.

Being blunt makes my posts short; I've found that while business men and professionals enjoy some chit-chat, getting to the point tends to show that your serious. Also, the more body you put into a post, the more a person has to read past your mind's jabbering.

I work with important clients such as Dell Inc. and General Electric, they dislike lengthy explinations and perfer straight to the point. I've also done some Stringer work (Follow police around and report on the happenings, but I was too poor to use a camera), so I guess it's part of my personality.

connick
05-17-2005, 02:39 PM
Off topic, but good point. One should always strive towards brevity, but never at the cost of clarity.

Lejar
05-18-2005, 04:20 PM
/agree Hiroshi. I think that these are too harsh. Maybe you could make something like perma-death for the rp servers, but I think that is a bit harsh for regular servers. I think that spirit with no perma death would be nice, but I think induced sleep is the best...though being robbed blind doesn't sound fun =P

Sanctus
05-19-2005, 05:01 PM
I like the re-incarnation one, it looks as if it fits the game, but the induced sleep seems a bit realistic tho.

EliteSamurai
05-19-2005, 09:45 PM
i like injury induced sleep the others are a bit too harsh i would say

ShininShado
05-20-2005, 03:31 PM
Hello,

First off, I think eventually the death aspect of a game is something that is usually just accepted. Different games impliment different penalties for death. Some corpse retrieval, some praying a grave, some spirit and going to collect your gear, etc, some just respawning with experience loss, which probably the lamest. Keeping death in the context of the feudal Japan theme, I think incorporating reincarnation from Bhuddism, and spirit from Shintoism might be good. Maybe like a purgatory for five minutes or something like that? Five minutes can be a lifetime if you are in the middle of a good battle. You don't want to impose too harsh of penalties as folks don't take risks, but you don't want to go without penalties either. How about reincarnation with a random roll on vital stats afterwards that last a day?

I also think that imposing different penalities for different death situations might be a good idea. If you are fighting a deer in the woods for food the penalty shouldn't be as bad as if you were fighting on a battlefield. I think the reincarnation with a random roll on vital stats is a good idea. You die, then respawn as a spirit, go to a Shinto shrine... or whatever relegion is selected by the player, then have a random modifier roll on any one/all of vital stats for one game day. This could also mirror being injured for a day after the death.

Just my take,

Shin

Galvorn
05-20-2005, 11:45 PM
I voted for Perma-death because otherwise there is little risk to a PvP game. I mean how would it actually change the face of warring? Most people would not really like to go to war if they had a chance to lose something. Peace would actually mean something. Not just hey we aren't fighting this week, but next week all bets are off.

There needs to be more of a risk/reward for bringing war to your province/family/whatever. I think too many PvP games forcus on the reward for thier players to push them in the direction of actually conflict. When most would find enough cause if just given the option to engage in conflict. So there needs to be somekind of deterent to just picking up a sword and slaughtering whomever you can. Without somekind of perma-penalty, why would anyone surrender to go to jail? Why not fight to the death instead if I just get to come back awhile later?


Yes gankers and jerks will love this, but then again they could die just as easily. So perhaps we will see some sort of bounty hunters come along? collecting heads of known criminals for money, so justice can be served? Perhaps ninja's for the not so known criminals.

(sorry if anyone has thought of this, as I didn't read through all the replys) Hmm maybe you could have death be based on your karma? You were good in life you get a second chance? perhaps reincarnation? You were a ganker who killed for the fun of it, or perhaps your character had just lead an evil life? perma-death.

just a thought..but I think a good one..


P.s. HA! I dont read past the 1st page of replies and post my thoughts only to have the guy right above my post touch on the same concepts. That will teach me to read the whole thread. So it looks like I agree somewhat with what ShininShado said as well.

ShininShado
05-21-2005, 01:51 PM
Hello,

I think the concept of having karma determine your death's penalty is a really good call. Someone with bad karma has more of a penalty then, and I think that would also create a more lawful environment, possibly. I am not opposed to perma-death but it would have to be a loooong drawn out battle sequence with at least a few solid chances to withdraw.

As well, being a technological game, there might be interuptions in ISP service, game client, etc, that would not make for good gaming to die in such a situation. There was a game called Dawn that was under developement they planned to impliment perma-death and several other features, like procreation, etc. You would actually procreate and more characters would spawn. It sounded really good, but the game never got off the ground. They had some really solid concepts though.

shizumadrive
05-26-2005, 10:06 PM
I chose induced sleep as well. If rp is a concern you could have the character die but but all the skills and abilities and (maybe)goods are transferred to a character which has a new name and could be given new avatar look. That way the player doesn't actually loose anything but you get a sense that some powerful person has died and not that the status quo never changes.

ShininShado
05-27-2005, 12:03 AM
There should surely be different death penalties for different death situations. I think karma based perma-death is the best idea. Have like 3-5 injury induced sleep deaths during an in game day, with less for every hit your karma takes. That would be realistic too, because different stages of the injury sleep could be like shock, delirium, or trauma. For instance, a killer can kill one innocent folk in an in game week before taking a hit to karma. Two karma hits means having one less in game death. If the outlaw killed 6-10 people and was killed they would be perma-dead. Also, there should be a curve used for attaining more induced sleep deaths. One in game month would mean another sleep induced injury add, with a maximum of 5. That would keep a griefer from making a new character and doing the same thing again and again. This would allow for some lawless behavior but should keep it in check too.

Ichigo
05-29-2005, 03:56 PM
Reincarnation seems reasonable from my point of view. Perhaps based on the karmic aspect of the characters death we can judge whether or not it should be a certain type of death. Like being caught when stealing, commiting suicide, or when you are a known murderer, they should be perma-death. If you dont act harshly against these types of people youre gonna have a million idiots running around killing random people, who aare just gonna be back in game play after half a bloddy hour! Impossible! If the person dies of old age, an honorable death in battle, or by accident, then I think reincarnation or sleep-induced injury would be best.

ToshiMaru
05-29-2005, 07:15 PM
hhhmmmm....death decided by karma??? sounds like a good idea. :hug:

Renji
06-09-2005, 02:20 PM
I vote Injury Induced Sleep
With a Re-incarnation timer of 60seconds (begining of allowing time) to 5 minutes (Expire time to auto revive)

Hows that sound?



Having Spirit wouldnt go well with the beliefs.
Perm death would be totaly shocking to lose all you have gained and have to start all over again for something u pay for.

VictoryOverWar
06-09-2005, 03:45 PM
i absolutely believe a game strived for realism should have perma death specially in a game with no skills. Now being fare i do understand that this is also a war game and i dont think your computer should be the cause of death ((you lag and that causes your death)) so there need to be some kind of balance and i am no dev so i leave that balance to you =)

connick
06-09-2005, 04:53 PM
Like being caught when stealing, commiting suicide, or when you are a known murderer, they should be perma-death.

What if you are stealing food from an evil person to feed your starving family? Or what if you are stealing something that was stolen from you in the first place? How would a computer discern between the two? What if you commit suicide to avoid divulging vital information. That kind of suicide would be quite honorable. What if you murder bandits and other murderers? You are doing a service to the community by killing these evil people, but a Karma-related death system couldn't tell the difference between a righteous killing and a completely senseless murder. Leave decisions of honor and karma in the hands of the players who actually have minds to think with and can make rational decisions that are out of the scope of computer programming.

Dump Karma and dump the idea of different deaths for different people. It's not workable and it simply doesn't make sense.

If the intention is to punish evil players, just burn their houses to the ground and kill their wife and kids. That makes more sense than conditional perma-death.

ShininShado
06-09-2005, 05:10 PM
i absolutely believe a game strived for realism should have perma death specially in a game with no skills. Now being fare i do understand that this is also a war game and i dont think your computer should be the cause of death ((you lag and that causes your death)) so there need to be some kind of balance and i am no dev so i leave that balance to you =)


I agree, perma-death is not a bad idea, maybe injury induced sleep mixed with that. IE five injuries in one in-game day, before death type thing, that way you won't just loose connection and perm-die. The five stages of injury could mirror trauma, shock, etc. From a realism standpoint, there needs to be a tougher death system than just dying and collecting gear, praying, etc. There should be actual loss, that way battle death will only be waged when needed, and there will actually be heroes.

connick
06-09-2005, 06:16 PM
I think that one of the big mistakes that has been made over and over again has been to punish players. I think my sentiment is echoed by others when I say that I want to play for fun and not be punished for my failures. I mean, if I wanted that I could just go live my real life and get all the flak I want for messing up.

ShininShado
06-09-2005, 06:21 PM
That should encourage players to learn from their mistakes, maybe, at least the smart ones. How about the idea of an actual afterlife in gameplay, that would be wicked. You could have a sequence of tests, and if they pass they go back to Japan, if they fail, perma-death.

Also, I like the idea of having those that choose perma-death be given higher fighting abilities, while those that choose, let's just say some form of spirit death have scaled back combat options. Doing this would also allow for those that wish to be farmers to just not fight and not worry with perma-death and loss of land or crops <could be tied to land>, while those that are warriors <in the spirit of the samurai> will gain considerable benefits and be faced with death. It would mean a night and day difference more if a person killed 100 people with a perma-death system in place than if they did that with some status quo <which has been done in dozens of online games> spirit system incorporated. Also, I haven't seen sepukku discussed really in reference to death.

"One who is a samurai must before all things keep constantly in mind…the fact that he has to die. If he is always mindful of this, he will be able to live in accordance with the paths of loyalty and filial duty, will avoid myriads of evils and adversities, keep himself free of disease and calamity and moreover enjoy a long life. He will also be a fine personality with many admirable qualities. For existence is impermanent as the dew of evening, and the hoarfrost of morning, and particularly uncertain is the life of the warrior…"

Daidoji Yuzan - Code of the Samurai

TheSporkedOne
06-16-2005, 12:02 PM
I quite like the re-incarnation system. It gives a feel of "You learn from your mistakes" It doesn't neccisarily mean you have to create a whole new personality, mabe just add a few traits. This way, you can play apart of your very own mini-family. After you die, you become your son, then your grandson, etc. Each one has an added trait and extra skills from past experiences with his former self/family member. This could also take in a new 'inherit' feature. In your current character, you can either approve of items that will go straight to you again, and some that will either be dropped or given to someone else.

This also gave me a new idea, an 'Honor-like' system, where if your former self dies and was well known, your current self recieves benefits from other players, the economy, etc. Veteran players who are well known and have saved many lives might become 'Heroes', and when they die their new self may have a high status in the game, family or government.

I think i covered many things i thought of here. I still think reincarnation is the way to go. Mabe there could be a way where injury-induced sleep could find its way here?

From what i've read in this thread, I see this as one of the best takes on the reincarnation idea, but i have some of my own ideas as to adding towards it. Keep in mind not everyone truely believed in the ideas of their daimyo's religion they just followed that and their own idea so maybe have the reincarnation only for the believers of certain religious sects? Just an idea that I'm not sure will work well as people could just "believe" thus giving them the option to live their role playing characters life fruitlessly and make all sorts of actions that result in the deteriorating of the system. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of reincarnation and I believe that is what should be put in the game, but i think there should be limits to how often it can be used in a set amount of time with the idea of the hero system giving the reincarnations extra advantages. I also believe that the injury induced sleep should be placed in the mix of the reincarnation so that death isn't always the final solution, because if the fighting system is as fun as it is being made out to be, duels between friends should be an option where the end result isn't death would be both a good way of settling desputs without the risk of loss of stats and items and such or just a good way to improve technique. Maybe add a kendo (or similar system) to the game so that the people can train on fighting making the outcome less on pure chance of hitting the right combo (which is a plague to most fighting games) and more on the idea of practice makes perfect. Sorry if i repeated anything that has already been stated.

TheSporkedOne
06-16-2005, 12:09 PM
oh yeah before I forget there should be a scar system or something, so that the plays have marks or even injuries that affect them to show the world their actions much like the way the karma system is set up so maybe they can tie in? Dunno, just an idea.
oh and maybe instead of killing to go with the injury induced sleep idea have item deterioration like in Star Wars Galaxies (even though that was a horrible game..)

Chronor
06-16-2005, 11:43 PM
i believe there should be an option for wooden swords (bokken). For the loser of the duel he would be KO'ed. This makes for an opportunity for safe competitions without having to gut each other and hover like spirits over their corpses. For example, such as a dishonor from one family to another, (simple: one family did a bad thing to the other) they have the option to duke it out w/ swords or bokken. You could also introduce a dual system which would set the corses and rules, which both sides agree on, for the fight ahead. And, naturaly i'd be mono a mono.

ShininShado
06-17-2005, 01:29 AM
i believe there should be an option for wooden swords (bokken). For the loser of the duel he would be KO'ed. This makes for an opportunity for safe competitions without having to gut each other and hover like spirits over their corpses. For example, such as a dishonor from one family to another, (simple: one family did a bad thing to the other) they have the option to duke it out w/ swords or bokken. You could also introduce a dual system which would set the corses and rules, which both sides agree on, for the fight ahead. And, naturaly i'd be mono a mono.


Such ideas are discussed on another thread, and TheSporkedOne's comments as well are discussed, just "search" scars and bokken or wooden katana, but good thoughts, and keep the posts coming.

keldoran
06-17-2005, 06:20 AM
perma-death or anytype of hardcore penalities isnt good for a mmorpg.
i think that a good realism is that when someone die, the body rest there and the items are free-for-all until you return from resurrection point (like old-style Ultima Online).
Items durability it's a nice system for recyclyng items.

Stats penality isnt very good 'cause losing items is a big penality that make the game realistic.

ShininShado
06-17-2005, 02:22 PM
Perma-death probably won't have worked well for most other games. Then again, in most other games you have levels, stats, and uber loot. The ones this game is trying not to fall into the rut of: EQ, et all... you spend ALL your time collecting armor and gear and leveling, and then you die and repeat. I think perma-death would be a suitable solution for charting a new course in RPGs, especially in this setting. I am not talking about a totalitarian view of it, but more like a scaled back, giving like 5 injury induced sleeps during a gameday before perma-death. It would totally negate most of the realism aspect to have to deal with the same guy coming back to the same battle, over and over and over and over. The status quo death system of most games are cheap and cheesy. For a samurai to want to survive a battle was corwardice.

TheSporkedOne
06-18-2005, 01:49 PM
I wouldn't call just wanting to live cowardice, I would think taking any precaution that goes against the duties to survive would be considered cowardice. I would see wanting to live as a good sign that your troops will fight harder to make sure that they get home to their wives and significant others and to continue the duty towards their lord. So maybe in that sense Perma-Death would be the better system because it would make the battles more serious (as said by many others before me) and make the fights in the battles all that much more intense because both want to come out on top and you pick your opponet more seriously and not just charge in foolishly. With the idea of 5 or so injury induced sleeps, I could more than live with the idea of perma-death but to keep realism maybe it should be a smaller number, because how many times can one person completely heal up and such in a single day? Ultra realism would say one IIS (injury induced sleep) but because of the assassin factor I wouldn't see 2 or 3 as being unreasonable and compromising the reality of the game it self.

ToshiMaru
06-18-2005, 04:40 PM
we all live in a paradoxial universe. Either we die, or we live......

TheSporkedOne
06-18-2005, 07:26 PM
Yeah this is true, but games are meant to be fun and dieing isn't exactly fun...

ShininShado
06-18-2005, 08:21 PM
I was thinking the IIS instances would be like trauma, shock, delerium, etc. Maybe three or so would work well, anyhow, after three of those and knowing that a fourth meant death would give anyone time to get out of a bad situation.

Akatsuki
06-18-2005, 10:06 PM
I really don't want to see an injury-enduced sleep. Tatsumaki seems to be aiming for a more realistic aspect of gameplay, and the death in this game should follow the close ties it has to Japanese culture. Either the re-incarnation, a widely pre-dominant theme that is clearly evident in Japanese culture - we can see this mainly in anime these days, two specific current examples being Naruto and Sousei no Aquarion, among others.

Plus this allows for interesting RP :)

A Spirit death would also be acceptable to a lesser extent, I would say bringing about something like a "spirit" system, where your inner strength/chakra/power is tied to how long you can stay in the spirit world before you permantly die.

ToshiMaru
06-19-2005, 03:00 PM
AKA. ---- You die and go into spirit mode, but if u die too much, you permadie? wasnt this discussed somewhere, im actually interested in any ideas on the issue. Ill give 300 points to whome ever can think of a new and useful way of dying. :cool:

Akatsuki
06-19-2005, 03:36 PM
Toshi...

Well, something like that. Say you have a Chakra stat of 20, which will give you 5 minutes of real-time to go find your body and revive yourself, or do whatever else you want to do in the "spirit world." The longer you take, the more your body suffers from not being attached to your spirit, which means you would revive with less strength and have to rest to work it back up. If you didn't get to your body within those 5 minutes, then your body would decompose and your soul would no longer have something to go back to. Sure, you could run around the spirit world forever, and maybe something could be implimented where you could affect things in the real world every once in a while, but... all in all, your character would be dead.

TheSporkedOne
06-19-2005, 06:56 PM
What would be interesting is the longer you stay dead the more drastic the effects are. What this reminds me of is like the idea of lack of oxygen, so the long you remain spirit less the worse off your character would be, much like serious injuries and stab wounds and such. The only thing that I believe should be changed in your solution to the death situation is that the results of long term spirit wandering is that they should be indefinate for the character adding to the realism of lack of oxygen. Just a thought. I still prefer the idea of multiple IIS's before perma-death (have a death blow option that results in bad karma in most situations?), but I could learn to live with the idea of the spirit world, though it was a stupid concept in World of Warcraft.

ShininShado
06-19-2005, 08:45 PM
To my knowledge there isn't any games with afterlife aspect to it, maybe this one be a good to incorporate that.

Akatsuki
06-19-2005, 10:14 PM
I agree a lot with Sporked here.. the "spirit" world in WoW was useless because there was nothing there.

If you could put things in the spirit world to interact with, like something I was thinking.. maybe, while in the spirit world, you could "haunt" or "bless" a person, causing their own chakra or whatever to rise or fall whether they are blessed or cursed by the spirit for as long as the spirit is in the spirit world.

ToshiMaru
06-19-2005, 10:20 PM
well, since the game is going to focus more on interactivities with a live human being, and not a spirit, i dont think theres any reasons to let a spirit have interactivity? I mean, it would be fun to fly around as a ghost, but you needed more as a live person, not a dead corpse.

All in all, im still open for new ideas. :grouphug:

connick
06-20-2005, 06:49 AM
A lot of these suggestions are unduly elaborate. Deaths should be few and far between and simple.

Tetsubo
06-20-2005, 06:56 PM
Dying is a loss of honor and a loss of face; if you don't remain dead. As our forums have "Rep Power" so the game should initiate a loss of face for those who don't remain dead. Loss of face could include;
1.) When clicking on a PC the fact that they have died and number of times perhaps.
2.) A negative effect when interacting with NPC's.
3.) Loss of guild/family status.
4.) Limitation to certain types of quests or (religious based skills).

Since players may have disconnects perma death may not always be fair. A way to work in an extra life for these occasions might be an option. Another option is to structure Injury induced sleep for the first 80 or X hours of game play. Then X hours of game play reincarnation finally perma death for the most advanced characters who you want playing as conservatives and not ganking newbs.

Just some random thoughts.

TheSporkedOne
06-20-2005, 07:39 PM
Tetsubo, dieing isn't necessarily a loss of honor or face, from what I've gathered some people have been honored more for the way they die. Now I know most of my japanese "knowledge" is bad as it is based off of Shogun and Cloud of Sparrows (one written by an American with no Japanese desent at all , Shogun, the other more a look into fiction) but from what I've gathered is that dieing in battle was considered honorable, as was seppuku which was not extended to all people just those considered worthy of the honor. Running from battle, going against the daimyo's orders, fearing death, and various other similar acts where considered dishonorable. In fact the kamikaze piliots were seen as honorable, and their whole point was getting as tanked as possible then crashing their airplanes into enemy ships.

Tetsubo
06-20-2005, 08:05 PM
I agree with you completely but it's not the dying...it's staying dead. Imagine having been sent to accomplish a task and you are reported to have died an honorable death. The next day you are in the village....I'll let you draw some conclusions. Either you are a god or a liar, perhaps a traitor or maybe something more sinister.

TheSporkedOne
06-20-2005, 09:11 PM
Keep in mind though, there is always the possibility that the enemy left you for dead when you still had some fight left in you. What better way to scare the hell out of your foes then to come back with a vengeance and more determination and skill than before. I know if something I thought was dead suddenly started appearing in crowds near me then disapearing only to confront me in my solitude and kill me the fright before the end would be damn enar unbearable. I think of it like the Batman ideals that the movie as well as the frank miller version brought up, rattle some cages and use fear in showing just pieces of your self till the final bit where you end it works well as an advantage against any opponent.

ShininShado
06-20-2005, 09:53 PM
A realistic game concept that involves samurai should have a realistic death system, if death means nothing, then how can life mean anything?

offthebreak88
06-20-2005, 11:35 PM
I think karma based perma death is the best way to go, For example, if you captured and publicly executed the leader of a huge violent army, he shouldnt be running around and commanding his troops the next day or the next week, he should be DEAD. If Bandits camp on the side of the road and kill and loot everyone who passes, they should be killed and done for. Maybe the only way to perma kill would be capturing and public execution? Maybe perma kill could only be done if honorable ppl consent to it? Alot of possibilities, my point is that there needs to be a way to stop a certain army, not just DELAY them for a day or a week. Otherwise it will im IMPOSSIBLE to ever completely destory an army, they'll just wait a week and come again until they destroy your village.....

KazeKuroi
06-21-2005, 03:28 AM
I wonder... What's wrong with the idea of the gods reserecting someone? I know it doesn't happen in our lives... and it adds a sort of magic... But how do you know what really happens when you die?... How do you know there isn't gods? in death you are supposed to learn all the answers... you will know if death continues to be a darkness... or if there is an after life. Depending on your Karma ect... How good one's soul was could a god not resurect you as a gift? You never know if when you die, if you have a choice to be reincanated. Maybe based on your karma, upon death, your choice should be optional. I don't know I am just rather tired, and becoming to analytical.

TheSporkedOne
06-21-2005, 08:47 AM
I believe the want to stray away from that sort of system has more to do with keeping with the idea of realism that this game is trying to promote. Personaly I'm fine with what ever system that gets put into place, so long as it doesn't give lamers and super hard core grinders an advantage.

Akatsuki
06-21-2005, 10:03 AM
A realistic game concept that involves samurai should have a realistic death system, if death means nothing, then how can life mean anything?

I fully agree with this, and a "Injury-induced sleep" just doesn't make any realistic sense. :(

TheSporkedOne
06-21-2005, 11:41 AM
It doesn't have to be sleep, it could be more coma like than sleep. Maybe I'm stubborn or something, but I just dont honestly like the idea noting getting much chance to learn from your mistakes, and dont exactly want to see my hard work erased because of some douche lamer. I also believe that most of the community is going to take favor to the idea of it being a non-perminate death as thats what MMO's these days support. Infact other than Diablo 2, I cant think of any other online rpg that has the possibility of outright killing somone off.

ShininShado
07-04-2005, 06:07 AM
I think karma based perma death is the best way to go, For example, if you captured and publicly executed the leader of a huge violent army, he shouldnt be running around and commanding his troops the next day or the next week, he should be DEAD. If Bandits camp on the side of the road and kill and loot everyone who passes, they should be killed and done for. Maybe the only way to perma kill would be capturing and public execution? Maybe perma kill could only be done if honorable ppl consent to it? Alot of possibilities, my point is that there needs to be a way to stop a certain army, not just DELAY them for a day or a week. Otherwise it will im IMPOSSIBLE to ever completely destory an army, they'll just wait a week and come again until they destroy your village.....


I agree with this point, killing a rival soldier in a battle and seeing them come back in 10 minutes with a loss of strength will totally negate any other realistic affects this game is going for in my opinion. I also think this will cut down on the lame l33t posse gank crews.

ShininShado
07-06-2005, 06:44 AM
Hmmm, I think I could live with just about any death system that eventually will be used. I really like the ideas of a karma based death system however.

Lothius
07-06-2005, 12:20 PM
what if they have perma death but when you die you can choice to make one "hier" so you don't lose your house,money and you would only lose your inventory on the dead character.

i hate perma death systems but it would make the fights more excited

ShininShado
07-07-2005, 03:53 AM
That's true, I'm in a state of indecision on how I think the death system should be implimented at the present time.

Hiromi
07-07-2005, 10:10 AM
I think karma based perma death is the best way to go, For example, if you captured and publicly executed the leader of a huge violent army, he shouldnt be running around and commanding his troops the next day or the next week, he should be DEAD. If Bandits camp on the side of the road and kill and loot everyone who passes, they should be killed and done for. Maybe the only way to perma kill would be capturing and public execution? Maybe perma kill could only be done if honorable ppl consent to it? Alot of possibilities, my point is that there needs to be a way to stop a certain army, not just DELAY them for a day or a week. Otherwise it will im IMPOSSIBLE to ever completely destory an army, they'll just wait a week and come again until they destroy your village.....


I really liked that idea. While perma-death sounds great for a lot of us, i'm afraid, in a real-life setting, that perma-death will shy most players away from real gaming. Especially on the RP side. I get attached as crap to my characters, and I wouldn't want to lose them after I'd RPed their lives out for x-number of months. And unless there was some sort of ruleset - all you'll get is a bunch of kids running around ganking everybody else for the fun of it. It'd be a big bummer if you're trying to run around by yourself and you get jumped, lose your character, end of story. Yes it would encourage you to build strong ties, but you're not going to always be travelling in a group. I know I leave the house a whole lot without a clan of people at my back. Re-incarnation sort of spoils my RP fun too. The idea about becoming so-and-so's kid, grandkid, etc is a great idea - but I'd get frustrated having to think of a knew personality for each one. And how would you really explain two characters (on that dies a lot) running around with their great-great-great grandfather's brother (who doesn't die at all?)

Someone mentioned about dying circumstances. If you're going to have any kind of perma-death or reincarnation, I think that's important. Being killed by an animal (or your own stupidity) shouldn't have as many consequences as if you're combating another player. Or, you should only have to face re-incarnation/perma death if YOU were the one instigating the challenge/duel. The other player, if defeated, would deal with injury-induced sleep. Or, it could be racked up over time. With the amount of killing you do, the price you'd pay if you were defeated would raise.

Like someone said about being a general of an army. Naturally, if you die it's going to be a huge deal, and people are going to notice if you're running around the next day like nothing happened. The higher you are, the farther you fall, I suppose?

But I liked the public execution idea. If there's a group of bandits running around ransacking everyone's junk, one should be able to put out a price on their head? Maybe that could be used as a ranking system for perma-death eligibility. If I'm griefing everyone - naturally there are a lot of people that are going to want me dead. And whoever kills me gets the reward? That'd work for the general of an army idea too. He's going to have to have his soldiers around to protect him - instead of just frolicking through the wilderness.

Blah, don't know where I'm going with this. Just rambling. :D That was my two cents!

connick
07-07-2005, 10:16 AM
If I'm griefing everyone - naturally there are a lot of people that are going to want me dead. And whoever kills me gets the reward?

A reward for killing griefers is a much more viable and practical option than punishing them through game mechanics. Good suggestion.

masterofwind
07-07-2005, 10:23 AM
I do not know if this has been brought up, but one of the not so good things about perma death would be... What if you got assassinated because some greedy person wants what you have...

ShininShado
07-07-2005, 05:14 PM
Or, you should only have to face re-incarnation/perma death if YOU were the one instigating the challenge/duel. The other player, if defeated, would deal with injury-induced sleep. Or, it could be racked up over time. With the amount of killing you do, the price you'd pay if you were defeated would raise.



This is an aspect I did't consider and it's viable. As well, I can agree with the last post and that's a good point to take into consideration. Perhaps letting GMs dictate who gets perma-death would be the route to go. Maybe once someone has died X amount of times, they are no longer part of the samurai caste, and cannot wield the weapons or armor of that caste. That'd be good considering the loss of honor from repeated deaths would lead to dishonor and shame upon their clan, as they should have trained more before entering combat.

connick
07-08-2005, 06:24 AM
they are no longer part of the samurai caste, and cannot wield the weapons or armor of that caste
It is my understanding that any player can attempt to use any item, why would these ad hoc restrictions come into play?

ShininShado
07-08-2005, 11:09 AM
It is my understanding that any player can attempt to use...

Attempting to use something and actually using are two totally different things. I'm still on the fence as to what death system would work best and be best.

ShininShado
07-11-2005, 05:34 AM
Ok, this is something to take into consideration when determining the death system for Tatsumaki; there will be no healing in the game. I guess even if the process of becoming injured were slow, knowing that there is no real "healing" in this game like most online RPGs, it'd almost be impossible to impliment perma-death. As much as it goes with the code of the samurai, the honorable path they walked, and Zen Buddhism, knowing that there won't be any healing just makes the idea really sketchy. I know there will be slow healing in the form of tinctures, salves, and potions from alchemists, but realistically, there's no potion formulated in Feudal Japan that could bring someone back from death, or give them actual health or stamina just by the process of drinking it. They would have to drink it, ingest it, the ingredients would have to take physiological effect on the body, then they'd start to work. There might be remedies for endurance, but they'd take at least five minutes to take effect, some maybe half a day. Perhaps perma-death might work best as a GM only done deal, or maybe with two parties entering into an agreed upon duel for honor deal.

Sykoi
07-11-2005, 03:57 PM
Actually there will be slight healing - bandaging (Doesn't instantly heal, just boosts healing), dressing wounds, etc.

Trin
07-11-2005, 06:56 PM
Considering the fact that battle is something that I think we all want to experience, a perma-death system would really make a lot of players stay away from battle. Partly, that may produce a much more orderly society, but it would also stop a lot of players from fighting, because their interest in the game would likely die with their character.

As I said before in a previous death thread, there is a fine line to tread between realism and fun. While perma-death is realistic, realism isn't always fun. If the game ends up being hyper realistic, but not much fun to experience, than the game has effectively failed.

No matter which you cut it, it boils down to fun. The game has to end up being fun to play, and I don't think perma-death is conducive to a fun gaming experience.

ShininShado
07-12-2005, 06:06 AM
Considering the fact that battle is something that I think we all want to experience...


Probably at least 25% of people in forums that have no real intentions of entering the combat system. They just like the setting and chance to interact in an environment like this. As far as the healing, I meant there was no instant healing so if someone were on death's door they'd basically be carried over the threshold, and hence the perma-death concept for combat wasn't quite as viable. As well, I do think perma-death should be used in instances for duels, to settle disputes of honor, public execution, or perhaps cases of unloyality to lords of a samurai family.

Sicarius
07-13-2005, 03:51 PM
Interesting, maybe add a "save" type option, where you can buy a scroll in the bath houses and activate it there and you bind all info regarding your character to it, when you die, you go back to the last save? Possibly too unrealistic tho.

connick
07-14-2005, 08:44 AM
I don't think perma-death is conducive to a fun gaming experience
Hear hear!

Hige Katsumori
07-27-2005, 11:28 PM
You know, you could use a system like Face of Mankind's. You buy clones on that one. On Tatsumaki, you could just by little statues or something at a shrine... And if you run out. PERMA-DEATH FOR YOU! D:

ToshiMaru
07-28-2005, 01:36 AM
lol, nice idea, statues at shrines. now thats original. but, basically that will just be reincarnation.

ShininShado
07-28-2005, 05:10 AM
The more I think about it, the more I am against perma-death. However, on the flip side of that I am totally for actual and extensive repercussions for combat, as well as actual and extensive rewards.

Hige Katsumori
07-28-2005, 12:26 PM
lol, nice idea, statues at shrines. now thats original. but, basically that will just be reincarnation.Hmm... I suppose your right. But, how exactly would just, reincarnation work?

ToshiMaru
07-28-2005, 04:02 PM
Hmm... I suppose your right. But, how exactly would just, reincarnation work?

hhhmmm, die, wait a bit, and respawn with another body, or using the same body?

Hige Katsumori
07-29-2005, 08:40 PM
Er, I different identical body? Because I don't think any one here would want to be in a randomly generated body. And I still think my Reincarnation-Perma Death combo is a good idea. <_<

Furious Ming-
07-30-2005, 08:33 PM
Im thinking perma death would make you mare careful and more aware in the game. Also it will make the assasins and other peopl who may try to kill think about the path they are going to take cause if there is no penelty for death then whats to stop the assasains and it will in fact like admins said it will make people come together in the in game community and out

ODA-NOBUNAGA
07-31-2005, 04:30 AM
Reincarnation would be perfect its harsh but not character breaking. A situation that could lead to death should not be taken lightly, this will encourage players to think carefully about how they fight and play in general.

ShininShado
07-31-2005, 03:06 PM
Reincarnation would be perfect its harsh but not character breaking. A situation that could lead to death should not be taken lightly, this will encourage players to think carefully about how they fight and play in general.

I think personally this should be at the root of any combat system. Built on this the combat is more just another facet to the game, than what the whole game revolves around; which happens when death penalties are too lenient.

Furious Ming-
07-31-2005, 03:48 PM
I am still a fan of a recovery system where you have wounds that will heal over time. Not too much time, but a few hours at max. It will stop players from rushing right back into battle and will take enough time that death still hurts. Maybe even some item loss would be cool. But that is your call.

The goal isn't to make this death system so realistic that players stop wanting to play and have fun. The goal is simply to make death painful and to keep players from rushing into a battle right after they have died.

This simple system solves both problems.

I am still a fan of permadeath, but it isn't for everyone. To be honest if I want permadeath I can simply delete my character after death. I prefer to give everyone an option so they can enjoy gameplay. This game doesn't revolve around a select few hardcore RPers. We still need a player base or it won't be fun for anyone.

-Osumi


I agree with your idea it makes sense your not losing your character with permadeath but its still something that can be troublesome and will make players be more careful since they wont wanna be cooped up in some hospital resting to get back there strength

Chronor
07-31-2005, 08:22 PM
It was previously stated that if they chose another form of death other than permadeath, that it would be instilled in a HardcoreRP server. SO...the question is what death system that would appease the population?

Zin
08-06-2005, 09:40 PM
im going to have to go with injury induced sleep, i dont mind having my items taken away but losing my whole character seems a little harsh in any case.

Munglai
08-06-2005, 10:09 PM
I think the week maximium recovery time was the best plan. You guys say you couldn't bare to have to wait more than a few hours of doing nothing, but of course you wouldn't be doing nothing, you just wouldn't be able to fight. Something that forces you to stop fighting and appreciate the other aspects of the game seems like a good idea to me.

ShininShado
08-07-2005, 03:40 AM
I think the week maximium recovery time was the best plan. You guys say you couldn't bare to have to wait more than a few hours of doing nothing, but of course you wouldn't be doing nothing, you just wouldn't be able to fight. Something that forces you to stop fighting and appreciate the other aspects of the game seems like a good idea to me.

That's true, and it would also hopefully help to mean that death and combat was taken more seriously.

crazy_taters
08-07-2005, 11:11 AM
new to the game forums...i had the site written down...because a guy i played Phantasy Star Online with said he was working on the project as a developer and well i was doing some cleaning and found the liink and decided to check it out ^^

Must say this is off topic but the game looks amazing!

I like sleep induced death ^^

selmo
08-10-2005, 11:03 PM
I prefer injury induced sleep i think the first two are way to harsh of a DP but having no dp at all kinda sucks. What i think would be really interesting but might be a little too much responsibility for other players is that if you die you need to be carried by your faction to a altar or somthign where yor spirit waits to reneter the body. Thats realistic but you could jsut end up left on a battlefield along with your entire family if you lose a battle.

Raph303
08-14-2005, 10:04 AM
I'm going to have to cast my vote for reincarnation. Permadeath is just way to harsh for most players to deal with. granted it does force everyone to be more aware of which battles they choose to participate in but it could also mean a lack of participation entirely; fear of losing ones toon permenantly is, well... no fun.

Injury induced sleep is good in concept but I still find that reincarnation is the perfect hybrid between all systems (barring spirit. never cared for that one. unique but not in tune w/ the flavor of most games; just trying to be original inspite of playability/entertainment value). Yes, reincarnation seems to be a good balance. Forces awareness and fosters gameplay. Just my opinion.

- Raph303 -

glowsticknation
08-15-2005, 01:14 PM
i voted for injury induced sleep, but now im thinkin reincarnation... just because from what i was lead to understand, you can still perform any skills you learned previously just by memorizing the key combinations or actions required. it may not be that simple, but from what i was told, it wouldn't be as bad as it seems... especially if there is a system where you can just go out and loot your stuff as your reincarnated self, especially then there is a chance to get back your stuff... and there could even be common courtesies in duels and big battles. where the victor gains the money of war, but the victims retain their weapons, armor, and food.

Tenshin
08-26-2005, 09:30 AM
I don't know about perma-death or reincarnation. I wanna play the role of my character and not change his name or appearance when he dies. I think the best idea would be a spirit with a risk of permadeath, Injury induced sleep, or even better yet a coma.

Perhaps when you die you wake up in a temple not attached to the game world, you have to perform tasks and can train there for 24-48 real life hours or so then you end up in a forest and find your way back to the city or something.

Looting would be a good idea, but if your a samurai you should be able to brand your sword with a name and it becomes your soul. So it gets looted, but there's a way to trace it, maybe a spot on your map, and you have to find the one who has it, and either buy it back, or fight him for it.

Sheepdog
08-26-2005, 12:25 PM
I dislike any death system that includes you loosing your hard earned weapons, armor, etc.

LineageII has a system that means you might lose something. What you lose drops to the ground and can be picked up by anyone.

Uo had a body that slowly degraded. When you died you became a sprit and had to find a healer or rezer. If you could get back to life and back to your body you could collect your things. Early days of UO people could loot your body.

SWG - you clone and loose nothing. You loose a certain % of your armor health. When armor reaches a 0 status then it does not protect you any more. I like this system. There is a penalty for dieing but griefers can not just kill you for your good armor and or weapons.

If a body returning to normal over time it could keep people from respawning and going back to a battle in progress and that would be good. Maybe 1 hour game time to get back to full health. You should be able to keep at least some items of choice if not all items from your body.

Jin
08-26-2005, 12:51 PM
I like injury induced sleep the best because having permadeath is too big of a penalty, although it would be really realistic and help with RP purposes. Maybe something that involved a certain number of injury induced sleeps then after you reach your limit, the next death will be permadeath. And maybe some kind of way to add more injury induced sleeps in the game when you are reaching the limit.

Tenshin
08-26-2005, 02:15 PM
Maybe a minigame when you die. It gives you a difficult task to complete in your mind, and once you can manage it, you can get back to the real world. I do wonder what the system will be like...

ShininShado
08-26-2005, 02:21 PM
That's similiar to the afterlife option I proposed, but it was shot down pretty fast.

selmo
08-26-2005, 05:48 PM
Thats actually not bad having to overcome a mental task, Or if you meditate you ascend when you are killed. But if you have not meditated before you have ascended you die either with permadeath or reincarnation.

Tenshin
08-27-2005, 01:54 PM
I don't know about that. But what page is your suggestion on Shinin? I really don't feel like skimming through 14 pages to find it.

ShininShado
08-27-2005, 02:05 PM
Here's thead for it, I think it's an innovative idea for a realistic game.

http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=578&highlight=Afterlife

Tenshin
08-27-2005, 05:06 PM
Yeah that's a good idea, but too fantasy for this game. If however, it was all in your mind, and when you triumph, wake from a coma, it would be better. But I don't like the idea of death being replaced with a coma. Your idea is great and realistic as a fun penalty for death, I really like it but it seems out of context for tatsumaki.

Honestly in terms of death, I'd like to see what the devs have planned. Guess I'll just have to wait.

Aucillion
08-28-2005, 11:40 AM
I like Reincarnation it just seems to be the right flavor for the genere you can be reincarnated into something very similiar to what you were and all.

Shina
08-28-2005, 12:01 PM
Do I claim to be an expert on this subject? Not in the least. But I just thought of something for the death...that might make things more desirable:

What if you do some sort of spirt based system, and as soon as you 'die', the screen turns like a glowy blue or something, and you're there as a spirt. So as to prevent people exploiting it as spys, lets say you can't go indoors and can't speak to people at all.

So the question arises, how to get back to your body? I think if you added a bit of the injury system, it'd work. For example, if it takes 30 minutes before someone can come and find you and heal you back to life, you suffer minimal penalties (ontop of your injuries recieved while dying). But, if you want hours or even days...your corpse starts to rot, and it takes more and more effort to bring you back to life, and once done...you have massive injuries ontop of anything that happened before death.

Now, how to get people to go to your body if you're a spirit? Perhaps you can seek out a temple or something, and the priest/priestess could meditate to see if any spirits were around, and then get a healer to go to the body. Maybe even, a spirit can leave a trail for a healer to their body (which can be dangerous, b/c the body could be looted by the person, or healed...but that adds to the fun I think).

I think that in the "spirit world", everything would be the same except colors...so to keep extra programming as minimal as possible. You'd walk and everything...you can even see other spirts, but you can't talk. (a penalty so the spirit world isn't more desireable than the normal).

This is a really rough idea, but I think it might work *shrug*

Aucillion
08-28-2005, 01:20 PM
No matter what happens with the Death Penalty you want to make it so Guilds/Clans/Families hierarchies stay intact so say when your guild leader dies he is still in control of the guild with his next character you want to do this so as to make the game guild friendly because even though the character dies the person in the guild does not and if you are not careful it could tear apart guilds which would be a bad thing as I believe this game if pvp-centric will be very much a game of leadership.

radicaledd
08-30-2005, 03:03 PM
I didnt read all the posts, to lengthy so someone might have already posted this..

How about this system? Altho might be very laggy on the server but. A level of Injury:
1-3 incapacitated
4-7 Injury induced sleep(will not be able to effectivly return to battle)
8-10 Death(karma would affect whether you where a good enugh person to be reencarnated or be permadeath)

Perma death would allow your character to return to the game but. nothing would carry over (loot/exp/ect)
but if You lived a good enugh life to rein exp and vitals would carry over but loot would be lost in the battlefeild.

Sykoi
08-30-2005, 03:20 PM
Its a good idea, however the perma-death is something that is purely optional on all normal servers.

Bento
08-30-2005, 08:41 PM
i think that death should be something serious in this game, so avoiding it is a priority and killing something actually does something. and preventing anyone from just abusing the death system if it does nothing significant by reckless endangering their lives with no risk

Aucillion
08-30-2005, 08:47 PM
i think that death should be something serious in this game, so avoiding it is a priority and killing something actually does something. and preventing anyone from just abusing the death system if it does nothing significant by reckless endangering their lives with no risk

and if their is to much of a penalty people will never fight or worse they will migrate to other games where they can live out their fantasy of being a warrior.

Bento
08-30-2005, 08:49 PM
yeah that is true, i just dont think that death shouldnt really do much. if the game is focusing on being realistic death needs to be something more then just respawning at the home town

Aucillion
08-30-2005, 08:51 PM
yeah that is true, i just dont think that death shouldnt really do much. if the game is focusing on being realistic death needs to be something more then just respawning at the home town


Well since their wont be traditional skills in this game unless you have mad combo skills in real life death is inherently nerfed since the player remembers all the skills and I'm thinking their will be no xp so cant take a XP hit what about if your reaction time is significantly lowered so it would be harder for you to fight after dieing for awhile :)

Bento
08-30-2005, 08:55 PM
yeah, i just want it to be worth assassinating somebody in the game. because if theres going to be an issue with stealth killing other families and stealing things shouldnt be too easy and should at least have some satisfaction after completing it

lol sorry if its a bit incoherent, im a bit tired

Tenshin
08-30-2005, 09:36 PM
I agree. Being able to erase someone from the face of the earth bring a LOT of substance to the game. I wouldn't mind killing someone and them reincarnating with the same skills if they lost their identity and ability to lead their clan. For Instance: say you're Lord of a particular clan, someone kills you, and you reincarnate into someone else, perma-death style. You still remember your combos, and return to your clan. But in order to lead a clan, you have to be a part of it for several ingame months. This would vastly improve roleplaying and worth.

Aucillion
08-30-2005, 10:23 PM
why loosing guild leadership is not a death penalty


Guild on Teamspeak will survive with the structure intact anyways the next person to have Guild Leadership will pass it to the their guild leaders (guild leader in real life) new character because they can communicate by voice outside of the game

Tenshin
08-30-2005, 10:50 PM
I know, but if you must be in a clan for a certain amount of time before becoming leader, it would cause a setback. And what if the person who takes the role of leader after his death doesn't want to give it up? For roleplayers, they may prefer to switch in-game leaders when one dies, and keep the same out of game leader. It doesn't matter, as it's not the person behind the character that you would want to dethrown, it's his character, and as long as there's a way to keep people from making the same character with the same name, perma-death would be great for roleplaying. It's no matter who's character takes the leader's place next, it's the character that matters.

Aucillion
08-30-2005, 10:58 PM
Either that of the Guild Leaders character is rarely on except to do official things I just dont see a pleasing way to do this alot of mmo'ers dont play to roleplay they play to wargame.

Tenshin
08-30-2005, 11:09 PM
Well this isn't your typical MMO. This game is meant for roleplaying. I'd think roleplay is more of a focus in this game than combat. (not that combat isn't a heavy focus.)

Mumyou
09-10-2005, 07:51 PM
Ok so if I was just some farmer and some guy came up and killed me and took my livestock I would be agitated but thats why I would pay taxes to a lord for gaurds to protect me. If people understood that a lords laws were beneficial in a means such as that the random killings wouldn't be very often, except in the case of bandits. Another rp aspect that I think people wouold enjoy as well as a game balancing aspect. How many times in games do you fight something hoping that you will win but not caring if you lose because you know your character will just come back to life? I think the perma-death will add realism to why a peasant runs from a man with a sword instead of standing ground with his hoe.

I think the reincarnation would be a good option even though I voted for perma-death. I would hat eto see the injury induced sleep though. Because then there is no reason why people should not randomly kill. People will be disenclined to go about murdering people if they know their character will die if they are caught. If I know that I will be only slightly inconvenienced buy attacking anyone I am more inclined to do it.

Though another idea for the injury induced sleep: if you are in a settlement or near one you could get it but if you are in the middle of nowhere then you don't. Then there is a reasoning for there for people waking up in a hospital when they are in town, otherwise if I am a 6 day hike from the nearest civilization and I get attacked by an angry bear and die but somehow I miraculously wake up in a hospital.

Ronin
09-10-2005, 08:30 PM
I think that injury induced sleep is a bad idea, there wouldn't be any jobs for assassins because all that would happen is they would fall down then not be dead

Simplexus
09-11-2005, 05:01 AM
Reincarnation all the way.
Let me explain myself...
Ok... First of all it brings the roleplaying back in the game, which many RPGs lack. There should be a harsh penalty for death, for it will all the better bring the price of death back on the markets. Deaths will thus not be toyed with, causing more prevention from deaths. What is a successfull MMORPG without the fear of death? To adventure on and journey through the forest, as in real life, there should be a fear of the unknown as death is a common path. What good is one whose life doesn't matter much?
In all RPGs death co-exist, but in my opinion... Reincarnation is the way.
Think about it. What point is it to wake up in a hospital after a death? One's life will decrease in value. One would be less tempted to cause crime. Anarchy is a major problem in some games, and I hope it will not exist in this true great game.
-Reincarnation for the salvation.
-Aim high.

ComicP
09-11-2005, 02:43 PM
re incarnation cause it's slightly realistic and won't piss so many people off

Simplexus
09-16-2005, 08:45 PM
I would like to add on to my opinions why re-incarnation could be the proposed method. How many of you will want to see someone's death? It could be because they are doing a crime, killed you, or interferring with your family business. The "price of death" will be lowered if we introduce injury induced sleep. The prices for one's death will be so low that it might even ruin the economic balance and the life of an assasain. It is an important issue to the game, that death should be treated seriously. If one will introduced injury induced sleep, then your point in killing someone is not made, enough. They will see this system of death as "carebearish" and venture on to the forest, without the fear, or "absolute fear" of death. With injury induced sleep, one will find sercet training areas, too quickly into the game. This is not a good system. My opinion will remain the same. I would truely like to express my opinions about the advances of re-incarnation, and how it brings the role-playing back into the game, which many RPGs lacks. The life of merceneries will be close to pointless if a system like injury induced sleep is implemented. I will say this again... I for all, will like to see re-incarnation implemented into the death system.
So...
-Re-incarnation for the salvation!

BigNinjaPimp
09-18-2005, 08:34 PM
they had a knockout system in SWG

Aucillion
09-24-2005, 12:25 AM
Well this isn't your typical MMO. This game is meant for roleplaying. I'd think roleplay is more of a focus in this game than combat. (not that combat isn't a heavy focus.)

Ah I finally thought of a reply to this that wouldnt sound hostile, though it would never have been my intention to sound as such however with messages their is alot of language missing like body language,and tone and it might have sounded a bit intense. The game maybe made to RP but that wont stop human nature somewhat offtopic but alot of the "great RP ideas" dont seem pheasable to do simple because they are too realistic and people are only human we dont come to a game to play a real life simulation or we get burned out because it becomes like work to do what you want,we come to play a game. I hope I didnt go to far off topic but this has been nagging me a bit. Maybe I should make a second thread for this?

as for the death penalty and permadeath while some people seem to think permadeath is greatRP (I think it is a bit to realistic for a game I come to blow time off for) I think permadeath will destroy gaming communities as somebody else may get control of the guild then either the community disbands or it is significantly altered especially if somebody (if your not close nit) that people dont all that well like or doesnt have the leadership skills to run a successful guild will run it to the ground.

mron
09-24-2005, 12:36 AM
i think it should be like a combination of re-incarnation and injury induced sleep, weather you die or become unconcious depends on how badly you were killed and with what type of weapon.
so if you were killed with like a wooden bokken you would just be unconcious
or if you were cut in half by a giant katana you would be dead and "re-incarnate"

nobody4422
09-24-2005, 01:36 AM
Im still for a combination of Injury Induced Sleep with occasional Permadeath based on karma and honor (I cant remember if this "stat" is real or just something someone made up).

you can see the details of it here

http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=322&highlight=Death

Moustik
09-25-2005, 12:41 PM
I vote for spirit...and to get it back we should meditate...

Xenetic
10-02-2005, 12:08 AM
Ok so the death systems are:



Re-incarnation
Upon death, your character will be deleted, and you will be forced to create a new one; any items on your person, will be left on your corpse, free for anyone to take. Any items in the bank, will be inherited by a trusted friend, family, or the city - for you to collect again upon your return; you will retain partial knowledge of previous encounters.

Pros
Maintain the role-playing aspect without players suffering too much
Force tight settlements to form
Death won't be something "you should steer clear of", it will become something no one wants to experience
Cons
May become a nuisance to players who die often






Perma-death
The end of life as you know it; perma-death will be the permanent end of your character and all possessions; while this has obvious downfalls, it has bonuses in the role-playing area, and will encourage players to be careful.

Pros
The role-playing factor is increased several fold
As with Reincarnation, players will form tight settlements, for safety
Cons
You lose everything once you die






Injury induced Sleep
After succumbing to your injuries you will be taken to a hospital or a personal lodging where you will awaken and slowly regain your original strength. During this time, you will not be allowed to move around too much; as you slowly regain your strength, you will be able to move around. Strength will be regained at an accelerated rate, to prevent this being seen as a 'nuisance'.

Pros
Not as steep as perma-death or reincarnation, while allowing role-playing to stay intact
Players can still rob another blind, while they are 'asleep'
Cons
Not very realistic
Could lead to hospitals being full after a battle
Not a true death system






Spirit
Upon death, you will appear as a spirit near your body and will be required to enter it once again; players outside of their body will not be visible by the living world, unless under special circumstances; spending too long outside of your body will lead to perma-death. Players’ spirits will be placed in special areas; possibly near or in a temple, hospital, etc.

Pros
Death still means something
Players will, as with perma-death and reincarnation, form tight settlements for security
Has deep ties to Japanese folklore
Cons
Somewhat mythological and unrealistic

First, forget the spirit death one, that just ruins the "no magical" thing and also copies world of warcraft and everquest 2 :p . So take that one out of the list. Now my idea is to combine the first three death types(Re-incarnation, Perma death and Injury induced sleep). Heres how you would do it:

See, you would die.... but how did you die? Were you hurt very badly? or was it just a big wound that would heal over time or could be treated? Maybe is was a cut good enough to kill you, but not hurt your items? Each of those 3 death systems would go with one of those questions.

For Perma-Death, it would be: "Being killed brutally (hacked with a sword like crazy :eek: ), harming your equipment you were wearing". Your items wouldnt be useable by the enemy if killed this way, so they would be completely ruined except for an item or two that you would have to take to a blacksmith to repair. You could probably take all of his ruined armor to a blacksmith and sell them for a little cash, the smith could salvage them or get some materials from them (like melt them and get some metal or something like that). So everybody wins =D.

Then for Re-Incarnation, it would be something like this: "Being killed by someone or something (traps, animals etc.) that wouldnt really harm your equipment(like a blunt weapon or martial arts, being beat to death). Alittle like Perma-death, but most of your equipment would be in good shape and would require little repairing from a blacksmith, so the enemy would be in luck. It would also make people try to kill you without cutting you to hell, so they would probably do some weak attacks on you so they can take your equipment. The re-incarnation would be like your characters brother or some relative maybe.

Last but not least, the Injury induced sleep would probably be like this: "Being hurt pretty badly, almost killed but able to recover in a hospital or personnal lodging". This would make some sense. People can always steal your items so yea, unless you have one of your friends that was with you when you died, he could take care of you in his tent or something. He could gather some materials from the outside or go buy them from town and treat you with them. Ooor he could carry you to a hospital and let them take care of you, while staying by you to protect your belongings.

Also, for Injury induced sleep, maybe your character might even forget a skill he learned, and you would have to practice it to learn it again. Lose some memory? =D


So just combining those 3 would be better than choosing one! hopefully this will work out! feel free to edit anything or whatever, but who else likes this idea? (by the way, I probably posted this in the wrong section but bleh =P)

Zangetsu
10-02-2005, 06:41 AM
Hello everyone , today after reading the wiki i was reading the death system and which one the devs gona choose or something


there was the Perma-Death , Re-incarnation , hospital one and the spirit thing

-------------

And lets say the Spirit one is 0% unrealstic and thats a sure thing "so ithink we should remove it" cause if u gona add this then u should add magic and other stuff as well .. since u can revive someone from death .. u wont have the ability to control magic ? :P


-------------

Perma-Death , Re-incarnation , Hospital Treatment


Over here is my Idea ... In the real life "since reality is one of the primary things here"

the devs should add those 3 in this game to give us the reality ...


1st Point "Re-incarnation"

As we all know when you die in real life all your money , your house and other things goes back to your family unless u owe some bank or ppl or something ...

so when we die in the game our stuff "the ones in the bank,our house and stuff ingame" should go to the family we are in... after re-creating your character you can get it back from your family "clan"

now u would say ... if we dont have a family ?? thats not fair and give advantage to the guyz in families and would force us to join ones if we even dont want to ...

the answer is simple the new character u make should considred one of your dead character family memebers so the bank will give u the stuff back

2nd Point Perma-Death

This System can fit in game too ... but for the "Bad Guyz" you got killed the police or whatever goes to the bank and take ur stuff as a payoff for your crimes so ur family cant take anythig off it .. unless u put it treasure box or something :-P


3rd Point Hospital Treatment


In real life not every one who got slashed with a sword dies or pierced by arrow or something ..

So i think they should add Cirtical hits in the combat while fighting your enemy he can slash you anywhere and hurt you badly .. there u would fall injured at that moment if your enemy left anyone can take you to the hospital and there you get treated and after that u wont be ably to move and wait until you regain your health slowly to kick some ass again


but if your enemy hit your heart or cut ur throat or something :bigeyes: then you should die and there u get Perma or Re-incarnation depending on your status ....

this is my idea so far and if you think there should be some parts edited then do :)

EDIT: you dont get the looted stuff from you back and you can be lootable if u was injured badly .. cause u passed out and ur like any dead guy in the end :) .. plus recreating your character wont be a problem i think cause if i got the idea right .. you just gota put the moves in ur head and then ull be able to do all the moves no need for ur old character .. unless theres some skills for like Strength and other stuff .. that might be hard ... but arent u guyz aiming for reality ? go on take the reality then :D

Simplexus
10-02-2005, 06:56 AM
There is a thread for this, and you can also have your vote. Let me post the link:

Waffa
10-02-2005, 02:35 PM
http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=1409
http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=1407
http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=1106
sykoi’s poll http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=332
http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=1060
http://www.eoeforums.com/showthread.php?t=343

These are just some of the post on death that I found browsing in ten minutes so pls stop posting new threads about death and search for it instead its all here. It would be nice if I could come check the forum and see some new topics every once in a while.

Zangetsu
10-02-2005, 02:36 PM
i puted this as idea .. not guessing or asking :eek:

and yea read em first before talking harsh .. cause even one of them is my ... double post ... heh

Waffa
10-02-2005, 04:40 PM
Like I said I just garbed some that I saw with death in the title. What’s in them isn’t the main point the point is that I found those in about 5 minutes. Their are so many post on these forums about death why keep posting it over and over again.

Xenetic
10-02-2005, 08:38 PM
Though I do think perma death would kinda suck =P I mean come on, imagine dieing and losing all that time you put into your character.... all of those items..... everything. soo maybe just add the hospital one because its the only good one. But like I said, needs a penalty, so people will still try not to die. Like maybe forgetting some skills, taking a bit to recover all of your strength and people can take a thing from you probably like you already said if youre alone. Just some more suggestions.

connick
10-03-2005, 06:52 AM
It would be nice if I could come check the forum and see some new topics every once in a while.

I second that emotion.

selmo
10-03-2005, 09:33 AM
Well why not start yet another rant about how the death will be in tis game. I mean why not develope how to kill characters before they code the characters at all ^^. Bump a new thread before posting another.

My take on death is to vary depending on situation. Be perma death if the char is killed by assassination. Be injury induced sleep if killed in battle.

Zangetsu
10-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Well why not start yet another rant about how the death will be in tis game. I mean why not develope how to kill characters before they code the characters at all ^^. Bump a new thread before posting another.

My take on death is to vary depending on situation. Be perma death if the char is killed by assassination. Be injury induced sleep if killed in battle.

be injury induced sleep if "killed" in battle


how do u sleep when u are already dead !! :)

i dont think they will do that because they aiming for reality ..

Ihiyu
10-10-2005, 05:56 PM
The permanent (and even reincarnation...) death system would not work well in a pvp environment. Gankers would enjoy perma-killing folks until some form of retribution against them could be effectively implemented. Even then, the ones who are power gamers would quickly find a way to make a new character and go back to killing.

Also, what of those who are running a family or have a business or dojo in operation? Who would assume command of those enterprises? Likewise, what of skills a character has learned--will death wipe the slate clean and they have to start over?

If my above concerns could be adequately addressed, a perma or reincarnation death system could possibly work. It would make the world more believable, especially combat. One thing I've grown tired of in other games is constantly killing (or being killed by...) the same guy over and over again. Otherwise I am in favor of a lighter penalty for death.

One thing that might work would be an optional "down" category that a character drops to when injured. Death would be another option. Allow players the choice of picking whether they want a hardcore model or an easier model for combat, and let "experience" earned reflect that position. If someone is willing to risk having their character sacrificed in battle permanently, let them advance quicker. Eventually someone will take them down.

Tenshin
10-11-2005, 09:41 AM
I like Xenetic's ideas of merging the ideas. I am also fond of the permadeath idea. With combat, you'll still know all your combos and you'll still be the same "level" with it when you're permanently killed. Just with a next character. Permadeath enforces more mature actions and thoughts before rushing in, some people will never want to fight out of fear of death. Some people will never get good at combat and end up choosing another proffessions after a few lives. But yes, I do believe a character should only die once. There should be times where an enemy is immobilized, knocked out, or unable to fight. And at that point his attacker can choose to leave him be, or finish him off. Leaving him be he's wake up in a hospital, and be a little slower or something, idunno.

But with all the speculation fans are making, and all the ideas we've put in in the past. I'm sure the devs have thought this over a hundred times more thorough then we, and came up with an innovative system. Remember that the Wiki is outdated. It just takes a long time to rewrite it, and I'm sure they have more important things to worry about.

I'd say, wait til a media release before talking too much about the game. Anything that inspires you from the wiki has been thoroughly discussed already, and all ideas are pretty much rehashes.

Kamakiri
10-11-2005, 10:07 AM
I agree perma-death sounds good in theory, but the main problem I have with it:

Griefers.

You spend months acquiring wealth and fame and start your own family, you have a retinue of loyal players who fight for your cause.

Then one day your dueling a friend, just a casual and friendly match.

Then N!/\/J4K4GE! comes outta nowhere and stabs your character and your friend in the back while you are both low on health. All your time and effort lost.

If you make another character and assume head of family again, your breaking the realism that is being strived for by the perma-death system.

Griefers exist everywhere on MMO games. I don't know if I want my characters story brought to an end by S4/\/\UR4IN1NJ4 because he thinks its funny to gank people who are already low on life. I plan of playing Kamakiri for a long, long time.

There are a few flaws in the arguement, but its the general idea of how I feel on the subject.

SunWuKong
10-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Xenetic's and Zangetsu's threads merged.

(Sorry for the delay.:o )


...These are just some of the posts on death that I found browsing in ten minutes so pls stop posting new threads about death and search for it instead its all here. It would be nice if I could come check the forum and see some new topics every once in a while.Thank you, Waffa.

Bengrizzly
10-13-2005, 04:52 AM
Re-incarnation- We don't need another WoW game were everyone and there mom is lv 60. The reason they are all lv 60 is because they can die anytime all they lose is a lil money for fixin armor and time for running back to your body. we need like a lose of xp it even a perma death for though reckless players.

Add more about the gankers. They wouldn't last more than one gank in the world. There name would be posted quick and there would be a mob on them there are more people wanting to play right than there are gankers. Me I plan on being a ganker stomper :)

MattyQ
10-13-2005, 12:58 PM
I have to be honest that, as we're trying to be realistic, that I lean most towards permadeath.

However, there are ways that could still allow for things such as dueling and perhaps extended longevity:

Why not implement a 'subdual' damage system? For example, regular weapons would could cause health or both health and subdual damage. Then there could be weapons such as the bokan or certainly styles of hand-to-hand martial arts that deal only subdual damage to the point that someone is knocked out (or subdual and extremely minimal health damage). That would allow for permadeath to remain a realistic portion of the MMO, but still have the ability to do other realistic things such as sparring or defensive martial arts, and still win against real weapons.

Tenshin
10-14-2005, 08:56 AM
I hope this poll doesn't set anything in stone. Honestly, the idea of having them all implemented in accordance to the situations is a great idea. I think you should be able to fight someone and defeat them with a sword without killing them, just a bad injury. But again, I want to be able to kill someone, and never see them again. This makes the occupation of assassin worthwhile, otherwise all that means is you get to use short weapons and projectile. If we're trying to make an immersive RPG perma-death is important. Honestly, it would suck if my character died and I had to make a new one. But it sucks to die in real life too, but it still happens. If you kill someone, only to know they'll come back again with the same name, same items and same skills. What's the point of killing them. With permadeath there's a real worry about losing your life. There's a real threat, it's not just, "Oh well, i'll just come back again after i wake up and heal."

Permadeath promote mature behaviour and make people think twice before acting, people would act more realistically in game with perma-death implemented.

nobody4422
10-14-2005, 02:04 PM
In response to the comment about gankers and griefers vs perma death.

The statement you make is true for a pure perma death system. However, with an impure or occasional perma-death system, one that is based on some kind of ingame factor it isnt entirely true.

For example, making the chance perma-death based upon karma/honor. Lets say a person with even karma has a 1:100 chance of perma death. A person with 50% of the maximum of negative karma would have say a 1:50 chance of being permanently killed every time they die. The reverse would be true for positive karma. The average person wouldnt have that much of a chance of perma-dying, while a griefer would have a much greater chance of being permanently killed, making the game much, much more difficult for them.This would still allow for the fear of death, but not have it occur too often for regular players but constantly for griefers.

Regarding the loss of work an status after months of working on a character only to have it lost by a perma death. For that there is the apprentice system. The apprentice acts kind of like an insurance policy in case your character is killed. Apprentices would be expensive, requiring food, housing, and other consumable supplies which would make it so that only established or importnt characters would get apprentices. Apprentices would also have to be "trained" by the player making a time comitment to them as well. This gives an advantage to the more hardcore players of the casual once a week players in that the hardcore players will have better trained apprentices to take their places should they fall (assuming they put the time in). This provides a cushion for the players who have put a considerable amount of time and effort. But at the same time, since apprentices are difficult to acquire and maintian, constantly sacrifing characters will be uneconomical and time consuming. This prevents the respawn problem opf the endless battle by first sending the player to a weaker apprentice and second by forcing the player to acquire and train a new apprentice before particpate in battle again safely.

But what about evil characters? Characters that are still roleplaying, but roleplaying bandits,murders, assassins and the like. The system would make little disticntion between these characters and greifers. For one this is a dificult path to take in reality and so should be reflected in the game. However, the main difference between a character and a griefer is the thought behind the action. An RP murderer will sit and consider what hes about to do, wether or not he will get caught or be able to survive, his method of escape, the cost and benefit of doing the action and all manner of other factors. The greifer on the other hand will simply see someone and try to kill them without really a second thought. The end result is that the greifer would end up killing people a lot more often than would an actual RP murderer resulting in more negative karma/honor and a greater chance of dying. The RP murderer would still have a difficult life in the game, but why really should the life of a RP murderer be easy, thats really a good portion of the fun of it. (RP Murder lies more in evading athorities and following a story or in game events, Greifing is just killing for the sake of killing)

NOTE:
1: The permadeath chance ratios are only examples
2: The apprentice system is not my idea and I cant remember whose it was, but I did like it so I incorporated it into this system.
3: If a character doesnt perma die the system would be injury induced sleep waking up at a hospital.
4:Apprentices have to be acquired so not everyone will even have access to them, allowing for entire clans to actually be wiped out.
5: This tries to balance RP realism with fun and so tries to take the best traits of all systems.

ShininShado
10-14-2005, 04:31 PM
I just came up with this idea, reading the last post. Since so much of Feudal Japan was based on reputation/honor. You could make so that if your "reputation" got to such a low point that perma-death became more likely. The most noble and most honorable of samurai live on in story and history, the lessers ones are either less prominent in history or either non-existant. An underlying "reputation" system could enforce/reflect that realistic aspect.

Along the same lines, though somewhat off-topic, is the fact that I think that there should be some sort of caste system implimented in this game to make it truly realistic, as well as some form of honor system, and both of these systems' specifics should be kept hidden from the player.

Tenshin
10-15-2005, 11:20 PM
I like everything that "nobody" said.

But think about this... When grievers attack, it's just some random bad guy attacking you... That happens in real life that you don't know their motives. If you're rping and a griever attacks you, you can kill him. They won't have apprentices if they're grievers, and it'll be like a random attempted mugging to an rper.

Akoni Koukoheki
10-27-2005, 04:57 PM
i did a search couldnt really find too much... i just read the types they are considering... i would suggest a blend of all of them... like the frist time you die... you are brought to a hospital, the second time your spirt needs to retrieve the body and third time... your OUT.. seems like it would give pleanty of chance for error while still being within reason... any ideas or imput??


This is the main (and only?) thread on Tatsumaki's death system.
Threads merged. -SWK

Alden
11-24-2005, 01:56 PM
i don't know how realistic you guys want this game to become, but i also don't know how big of a fanbase you want, i was talking about this game on my guild teamspeak last night while i was playing WoW (12+ people) they were saying they'd give the gamea try and buy it, but i said anything about the permadeath/injry induced sleep, they were like, "screw that game", and personally i don't like those 2 ideas either, but it doesn't seem like it would attract a lot of people


however, if you formed a spirit system and made a form of either time penalty or physicial penalty, that would last say a little while, like 15 to 20 minutes, like reduced walking speed, or reduced damage, etc. that would work very well

Aucillion
11-24-2005, 03:06 PM
i don't know how realistic you guys want this game to become, but i also don't know how big of a fanbase you want, i was talking about this game on my guild teamspeak last night while i was playing WoW (12+ people) they were saying they'd give the gamea try and buy it, but i said anything about the permadeath/injry induced sleep, they were like, "screw that game", and personally i don't like those 2 ideas either, but it doesn't seem like it would attract a lot of people


however, if you formed a spirit system and made a form of either time penalty or physicial penalty, that would last say a little while, like 15 to 20 minutes, like reduced walking speed, or reduced damage, etc. that would work very well

In Shadowbane you respawned and it was a severe penalty you could move but not fight, and if you left the safe mode you could die-again if pked in which case the penalty stacked, but not the safe mode, and it (death shroud) only lasted I think 99 second. (I'm not sure) you dont need a 25 minute death penalty that sounds kind of harsh.

Somebody needs to add respawn to the vote options.

Saburo
11-24-2005, 06:00 PM
I'd like to see spirit like in UO. Where when you die you become a ghost basically and you have to find a healer (NPC or maybe high level players healers?) to reserect you. You lose everything on you unless you can get back to your body fast enough to get the stuff back. Thats of course if someone else hasnt already taken it.

Aucillion
11-24-2005, 06:54 PM
I'd like to see spirit like in UO. Where when you die you become a ghost basically and you have to find a healer (NPC or maybe high level players healers?) to reserect you. You lose everything on you unless you can get back to your body fast enough to get the stuff back. Thats of course if someone else hasnt already taken it.

I may or may not be against that, it just depends on how hard it is to get some good pvp competive equipment back. I'am not saying that getting back the Katana of IPWNU should be easy but I would like a decent replacement katana to be easy enough to get back or atleast be able to have a few decent weapons in the bank.

ShininShado
11-24-2005, 08:10 PM
That system works well, but is on the unrealistic side to be feasable for Tatsumaki in my opinion.

Aucillion
11-24-2005, 09:36 PM
That system works well, but is on the unrealistic side to be feasable for Tatsumaki in my opinion.

Well for the sole fact of playablity their will probably be some unrealistic things in the game for sanity sake, I mean it would be brutal to have everything you built destroyed by one sole ganker out for a fun rush. :)

Reincarnation might not be bad I might even like being able to change my name but I would want to inheret my old journal entries,family status,estate and whatever was not taken off my corpse by Fred The Murderer. And yes I will admit to have even been Fred once in awhile :D

Alden
11-25-2005, 03:29 AM
well thats the whole thing with the death systems they have been proposing, it seems like they're really strict and that it would deter a player from even try experimenting, i mean you shouldn't punish the player for dying, death itself should be the punishment, maybe it'd make your overall family honor drop or whatever, i think im propsing a system much overall different from what tthe developers have in mind, but then again i don't know how they're going to rate how well a family is or how well teh player is doing and the what not.

ShininShado
11-25-2005, 05:16 AM
Yeah, I can see some compromises being made in reference to fun/realism aspect of game. However, a game striving for realism wouldn't have a spirit death system in place. Compromising on important aspects like death/looting/etc of game will compromise the whole premise.

Alden
11-25-2005, 01:03 PM
well so will comprimising their entire finacial market...I can't imagine that these developers wouldn't want a larger market.

Zatoichi
11-25-2005, 08:07 PM
Oddly enough, I favoured "perma-death", with maybe some "next of kin" stuff to make it not hurt so bad.

By "next of kin", I mean allow your character to save certain possessions to be passed on. When you make a new character after the old one dies, your new character starts with these posessions - and with x% of the skill base of the deceased. A "like father, like son" sort of thing. If dad was a pro blacksmith, the son grew up to be not half bad. Or younger brother, or second cousin, or whatever. Even the "wandering hobo" types can leave their meager things to the "boisterous street youth that reminded him of himself when he was younger" - if that's what your character is.

To my understanding, EvE Online employs a "perma death" system, but with the option of cloning yourself. The higher the quality of "clone", the more closely in ability it will resemble the "original". Obviously, no clones in Feudal Japan, but you could have teachers. Even if dad is away, the more he spends on teaching, the closer his "next of kin" will resemble him when he bites the big one. Write a will, and that takes care of the inheritence.

Things like estates, wealth, and arsonal may be passed on to the "next of kin". Personal posessions, like pocket money, current weapons, and hat could be stolen by the asailant.

This allows for death to be real enough, while still not totally wiping all players had worked for. Since there are no "levels", it's not like the new character has to walk around killing mobs all over again. At the very worst, he's a little poorer and a little less skilled than the previous character, AND needs a new name.

Also, perma death opens up the door for "perma-injury" too! Scars, walking with a limp, no left hand, etc. But maybe that's too realistic...

Telsist
12-03-2005, 05:27 AM
I've not read this whole thread, but I just had an idea. I've read about a prementioned Karma system. My solution would be to link Karma with perma-death.

A person with high Karma is likely to be liked by a large portion of the community. Due to this level of respect, he or she would be "knocked unconscious" rather than slain on the battlefield.

A person with low Karma is likely to be disliked by the community. Most would go out of their way to ensure the safety of everyone by killing this individual.

What I'm getting to is this:

Players with high Karma can "die several times"(similar to the injury induced sleep concept) before his character is finally killed permanently. Players with low Karma will not be so lucky. The penalty for death is extremely harsh for the more evilly inclined character as well as for the "I want to kill things" crowd of gamers.(They exist in droves and they WILL plague any game they can get their hands on!) On the other hand, your regular good semaratin will be given a little leniancy on his penalty. He should still look out! He or she had better not get caught by a sword blade TOO many times.

As a relative example:

1)Evil_Murderer01 is defeated on the battle field. The victor would kill him but is feeling generous today. He has one more chance to redeem himself and get his karma up before he's back at character creation.(effectively has 1 respawn)

2)Good_Semaratin07 is defeated on the battle field. Due to his good deeds of past, the victor knocks him unconscious and informs a nearby healer of his location. This character has been given a break due to his good deeds.(effectively has, let's say, 5 respawns)


With a system similar to this, more people will behave themselves for fear of losing their hard work, should they succumb to the "dark side".


PS: Hello to the community! *waves* Brand new member here.

Edit: Upon further reading, I've noticed some similar comments to what I just posted. I'll just leave what I put. And for what it's worth, I've worked with Nobody4422 before in another game. He's got it together and is a real bright guy.

Senshi
12-12-2005, 01:44 PM
I would want the spirit thing like in that free game "conquer online".

Chronor
12-13-2005, 06:54 AM
I like your idea Telsist!
(and welcome to the forums)

It roots out the problem players and just leaves those who want to enjoy the game. But for the player that doesn't want to Spoil the Game, but just wants to dabble in the dark side of Japan, Opium Houses, Gambling ect. They would get bad karama as well but never actually be a problem. Would there be something to balance the evil characters as well?

Ex: Good Chars=Respawn Points Bad chars=Xp & Gold is faster?

Masashige
12-16-2005, 04:45 PM
Telsist and Zatoichi both have some good ideas. A combination of those and a little refinery to accomodate both would be in the game's favor. I was thinking more along the lines of an heir system as well. Promotes marriage and relationships among players and the whole family/social aspect.

Abakan
12-18-2005, 11:53 AM
Hello all. This is very difficult subject, very. I red almost every post, and at the end, I gave my vote to injury system whit hospitalization, Death is in-game event which cannot be target of exploits (devs shouldn’t let that), and players shouldn’t take it very likely, cuz in other case, we gonna have anarchy, and disrespect of in-game world by player side. Also, after player’s death, we need to “remove” player from battle ground, or any combat activities for some time. In SWG we had problem (especially in massive PVP situations). When a player was killed, he was send to cloning facility, but he is still “active”, and he can turn back to battle ground whenever he wants that. So we have situations like when you kill a enemy, after 5 minutes he’s back, you killed him again, and, he’s back, so on.(In one PVP battle I killed one guy like 20 times, in hour, and as you can see, that’s lame and stupid, not to mention in-game realty). Remove time from any activities should be at lest 7 hours (one day is also fine whit me), cuz in many cases some battles can last for 5-7 hours, or even more. Whit this system you’re not totally removed from activates (depends of your wounds or location of them), just you can’t do any “heavy” work if you know what I mean, and on the other side its realistic (or not so unrealistic), which is one of main philosophies of this game. Whit this system, I would also like to see some decay of your inventory (20%-40%).

I’m also whit perma-death, when you die it’s over, period, but I can understand players, and their disagree about perma-death,.

Re-incarnation is filed of mysticism, and magic (totally in it), so even if its good “punishment” for players, it’s against ideas of realty, big time.

Best wishes to you all. :) :)

Senshi
12-18-2005, 12:01 PM
I agree with Abakan about the battle thing. I also like the karma-sleep thing. But is there a way to have the Karma + Ghost?

Ronin
12-18-2005, 12:28 PM
I say no to the decaying of items, but the person who killed you gets to choose ten things he/she wants to take from you. That way the 'leet' won't be so proud, as a well placed knife thrust in the neck is just as good as a sword through the chest, and then they would lose their 'leetness'.

sonicboom970
12-23-2005, 02:19 PM
Remove time from any activities should be at lest 7 hours (one day is also fine whit me), cuz in many cases some battles can last for 5-7 hours, or even more. Whit this system you’re not totally removed from activates (depends of your wounds or location of them), just you can’t do any “heavy” work if you know what I mean, and on the other side its realistic (or not so unrealistic), which is one of main philosophies of this game.


Best wishes to you all. :) :)
I agree, so if i get what ur sayin you can still walk around (unless its a severe leg injury) and enjoy the senery but you wouldn't be able to do hard work ea. fight, mine, smith, ect. But you would be able to do light activities. (sorry if im re-emphasizing a lot)

Abakan
12-23-2005, 06:39 PM
Yes, generally speaking, something likes that. It depends of yours wounds location.


Best wishes to you all :) :)

Utsuse
01-01-2006, 01:09 PM
I'm for the perma solution. Because it would force people to act more realistically correct and all that... But it may well lead to many ugly words when dying...

Stomis
01-01-2006, 01:29 PM
Along with the injury induced sleep IE being layed up in a hospital players should actually be forced to be limited as to what they can do. In other games I have played I find it rediculous for someone to die, respawn and be able to hop back into the fight.

Ronin
01-01-2006, 01:47 PM
Remember that this game is also for fun so perma death is a way to make many players leave the game ><

If someone just randomly kills you then you lose EVERYTHING you have to start over and that's no fun. so people will quit, and htat is most likely not in the interests of EOE, as they would lose money.

selmo
01-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Remember that this game is also for fun so perma death is a way to make many players leave the game ><

If someone just randomly kills you then you lose EVERYTHING you have to start over and that's no fun. so people will quit, and htat is most likely not in the interests of EOE, as they would lose money.

Plus you may get the hardkore gamers that will kill themselves...jk

Yeah I dont think perma death is a good choice I think you can keep your char or somthing like in dnd:

you are below 0 you are incapacitated, which means you are sent to a hospital
or you are below -10 you are DEAD

thing like this is maybe bloodloss brings you to hospital but like someone cutting off your head kills you...somthign relative teh size of the defeat relative to the DP

sgsoloplayer
01-03-2006, 06:57 PM
I think the injury induced sleep would be a good idea if a little twist was added. The penalty or hinderance after death should be determined on how someone dies (like karma). If they die in battle or exploring the penalty should be less than someone who dies while trying to grief another player. I dont know if it is possible to impliment a system like this but it would be a cool way to set it up.

Bai Kai
01-04-2006, 04:10 PM
As long as we could somehow regain our posessions without starting from nothing any way could work.

selmo
01-04-2006, 04:13 PM
As long as we could somehow regain our posessions without starting from nothing any way could work.

Sorry to get a bit off topic but what I plan on doing if perma death is enforced, is have my assassins leave all their things behind and take only what is necessary for the job, that way if they are killed or caught and need to killthemselves their things are still here.

sgsoloplayer
01-05-2006, 02:02 AM
Thats why I'm glad I'm in your care Selmo ;)

Senshi
01-05-2006, 03:37 AM
Always perma death isn't good. Karma-injury sleep is good.

Aucillion
01-05-2006, 12:47 PM
The more I think about it, the better respawning at a bind point sounds. and of course leaving a grave to loot.

selmo
01-05-2006, 02:33 PM
The more I think about it, the better respawning at a bind point sounds. and of course leaving a grave to loot.

Agreed this is byfar the best way to go. Not too bad of a penalty but enough that people wont just run out into battle, because they need to recover some.

sgsoloplayer
01-05-2006, 03:15 PM
I agree with Aucillion as well. If the penalties are too harsh, everyone will be way too cautious to get in any sort of fight. But as selmo said, the penalty must be decent so that people are not simply running into other cities and trying to hack away at random people.

Sykoi
01-05-2006, 03:17 PM
Keep in mind that fighting is a small part of Tatsumaki and shouldn't be thought of the main reason to play, so while your logic is sound, sgsoloplayer - its a bit off-topic for Tatsumaki.

Utsuse
01-05-2006, 04:25 PM
Keep in mind that fighting is a small part of Tatsumaki and shouldn't be thought of the main reason to play, so while your logic is sound, sgsoloplayer - its a bit off-topic for Tatsumaki.

Definately hope so! The view I got of T:LaW is that it would be more of a historical and virtual world to live in. Rather than levelling up and killing everything. So I'm still not convinced that anything than perma will do.

Hakinhi
01-05-2006, 05:14 PM
I wouldnt want the perm-death unless the person has bad Karma.

Shima_Ryu
01-07-2006, 12:08 AM
i like the re-incarnation idea because
1) death was a big part of the samurai life
2) if a samurai was defeated and survived he would most likely committe hara-kiri anyway
3)if u only lost 1 or 2 skills, talents, or what have u, it would be perfect. its not entirely like the religious reicarnation idea or else ur character would restart as a baby and grow up again

selmo
01-07-2006, 12:28 AM
i like the re-incarnation idea because
1) death was a big part of the samurai life
2) if a samurai was defeated and survived he would most likely committe hara-kiri anyway
3)if u only lost 1 or 2 skills, talents, or what have u, it would be perfect. its not entirely like the religious reicarnation idea or else ur character would restart as a baby and grow up again

Well it has been brought up that talents will be button combos, so that there is no stopping someone just writing them down, it is not somthing a character rememebrs, somthing the player does or else this would be perfect

Shima_Ryu
01-07-2006, 09:02 AM
Well it has been brought up that talents will be button combos, so that there is no stopping someone just writing them down, it is not somthing a character rememebrs, somthing the player does or else this would be perfect

if thats the case, then make sure to have a pen rdy when u go to a dojo and put anything important in storage before u go to battle, after that its just building stats again, which the difficulty all depends on the devs

or they could do the ko/deathblow from swg which would be work as the injury sleep but still use death and one of the other 3 ideas

Utsuse
01-07-2006, 02:28 PM
have a suggestion about this death-syndrome:

Differnet areas could have different risks.

For example could you be pretty safe in your home-town (re-incarnation) and out in some specific battle-areas there is perma or something like it. (If you want to fight you'll have to pay the price... Also alot more nerve)

Or what do you guys think?

Telsist
01-07-2006, 07:10 PM
That's an interesting take on it, Utsuse.

High chance for being revived if defeated in or near friendly cities. High chance of perma death if killed in the middle of nowhere or not so friendly cities.

Shima_Ryu
01-07-2006, 08:38 PM
i agree. very inovative and realistic(except in the case that ur head is resting on ur lap). plus it would make ppl mind there surroundings before starting fights

EmeraldSage
01-11-2006, 06:56 PM
I think reincarnation is the way to go. If it was implimented sort of 2 steps back 3 steps forward people wouldn't be too upset when they died. Like, if you were an armor craftsman and you died your ability is back to that of a new character but develops faster and can get higher. Sort of like your reincarnated self is predisposed to your specialty before death so it has a small bonus in that field. The predisposition should be proportional to how far you got before death. Or something like that... there was more in my head but it left me. T.T

Xenetic
01-12-2006, 08:20 PM
I voted for injury induced sleep. I mean what if you go afk and someone kills your char? bam, gone forever!

marduk
01-13-2006, 05:51 PM
I think we should stick with idea of combining injury induced-sleep and reincarnation.
But PERMANENT death is NOT an option in game.

it is impossible to make fully realistic game so we should find a compromise
and we shouldn't be obsessed with it or game will be unplayable.

First we need to ask ourselves - what do we need death penalty for in game?
1) people need to be aware of and fear consequenses of their actions
2)if there is no risk there is no fun
3) if you cant immediatly return to battle after you die - then it is really affecting important parts of gameplay - duels, wars, conquering and such
and if some arrogant bastard attaked you and you defeat him he cant bother you again immediatly :)


In any case people care much less about death in game than in real life - so thats why we have such things as pvp and gankers. In real life i dont want to stab a policeman with a knife just for some sick fun because he can shoot me or put me in jail and my life will be ruined. So we need a system that will discourages us from any antisocial actions and makes us think twice before we doing something dangerous, but still allows us to try something interesting if someone really want to roleplay criminal or buki.

So as a summary of all the posts here:

Penalty for death depends on following:
1) Karma - absolutelly agree with this idea.
if you are killed - then injury induced sleep in your clanhall or in temple if you arent member of any clan or family.
Better your karma - less penalty(or recovery time)
when you are out of karma after few deaths - you are reincarnated.

2)player location - city or wilderness(if you are killed in city then penalty is much lower)

3) if you are a commander of an army and involved in battle or some kind of event, then after your death next highest in rank becomes commander after you and you cant be commander untill the end of event/battle

4) chopping someone's head off is really hard in real combat so it won't happen to often, but when it is happened then - reincarnation(though really dont sure if we should consider it at all)

5) time of recuperation after death should depend on quality of temple/hospital and doctors

and one more thing:

I dont found in wiki anything about character aging - at what age do we start after char creation and if char will age at all,
but if it is so, then after reincarnation he should be at his starting age probably.

moses
01-13-2006, 07:21 PM
One thing i think should for sure be implemented if we dont have perma death is this. When a person dies, there needs to be something that stops them for a set amount of time from returning to certain things. For example, when a family leader is assassinated he shouldnt be able to return to the head position for like 48 hours or something. Now, the family could choose to supplant him with another with out any problems, but there needs to be a way to make it worthwhile to assassinate certain people. Same thing in battles. If a ninja kill the overall battle commander, then there should be consquences, (morale loss, the guy cant return to the battle, etc). IDK, just some thoughts.

selmo
01-13-2006, 07:38 PM
One thing i think should for sure be implemented if we dont have perma death is this. When a person dies, there needs to be something that stops them for a set amount of time from returning to certain things. For example, when a family leader is assassinated he shouldnt be able to return to the head position for like 48 hours or something. Now, the family could choose to supplant him with another with out any problems, but there needs to be a way to make it worthwhile to assassinate certain people. Same thing in battles. If a ninja kill the overall battle commander, then there should be consquences, (morale loss, the guy cant return to the battle, etc). IDK, just some thoughts.

I agree entirley about this. Though i think 48 hours is a bit steep maybe like 2 hours where the character is unable to leave the hospital or log in. Because if the battle is going on then it will be over in about an hour maybe 2.

moses
01-13-2006, 07:41 PM
ya, maybe not 48, but possible 24. there needs to be time so if a family wanted to mobilize against them they could. for example. if yukie assainated soemone in britain, i probly wouldnt be able to do anyhting till a couple hours later, which would make the assassination somewhat pointless.

Xenetic
01-13-2006, 10:18 PM
yea I think we pretty much just elminated the perm death idea ^^

selmo
01-13-2006, 10:51 PM
ya, maybe not 48, but possible 24. there needs to be time so if a family wanted to mobilize against them they could. for example. if yukie assainated soemone in britain, i probly wouldnt be able to do anyhting till a couple hours later, which would make the assassination somewhat pointless.

I guess this is true, actually rethinking it 24 horus dp seems good

moses
01-13-2006, 10:56 PM
another thing is if you made rank/postion etc affect how much time you cant play. for example if your a soldier in a family, it may only be like 2-4 hours, but if your the leader 24. Same with soldiers in battles, commanders would be out like 2-3 hours so they couldnt return, but maybe soldiers, 30mins-1hour so that there can be "reinforcements"

nobody4422
01-15-2006, 12:59 AM
yea I think we pretty much just elminated the perm death idea ^^


I hope not, I want death to mean something. I want people to fear dying, not just see it as an inconvienience.

Aucillion
01-15-2006, 02:52 PM
I hope not, I want death to mean something. I want people to fear dying, not just see it as an inconvienience.

Well if you die before you become competitive or even powerful then their is very little reason to play.

selmo
01-15-2006, 04:06 PM
Well if you die before you become competitive or even powerful then their is very little reason to play.

Well this reminds me of dot hack twilight now dosnt it....the point being that players cant have fun if death is too real

Svage
04-10-2006, 03:40 PM
you could combine the perma death and non-perma death ideas. Leaving Perm death in there, but just making it something that is hard to accomplish. Like haveing at coup de gras someone's unconsious body, and recieveing a large Karma penalty or something like that for doing so. but combat areas, like a battlefield, you cannot perma die, you just can't enter the battle again untill certain requirements are met.. like that time limit based on ranking or something like that. I like the Idea of not allowing those who were 'killed' in battle to re enter the combat zone at all. it can make being 'killed' in battle alot more important to the outcome.and it will also make strategy more important, like if you really should keep some in reserve, or if you really should have broken that alliance the other day.

BigE
04-28-2006, 05:49 PM
re-incarnation without the loss of items from your corpse would be best imo.

Masamune
04-29-2006, 05:38 AM
re-incarnation without the loss of items from your corpse would be best imo.

I agree. Injured induced sleep and spirit are just so... what's the word I'm looking for? LAME. I mean seriously, how many games solve death in this manner, and make it so death is not something to be feared. If the goal of Tatsumaki is to help preserve the sense of realism, then a re-incarnation system WITHOUT the loss of items from your corpse is the best way to go.



Death - Death is always a controversial part of an MMORPG. It is to my believe that death penalties should be moderate in behavior, neither swaying to extreme death penalties or carebear death penalties.


Quote:
Re-incarnation
Upon death, your character will be deleted, and you will be forced to create a new one; any items on your person, will be left on your corpse, free for anyone to take. Any items in the bank, will be inherited by a trusted friend, family, or the city - for you to collect again upon your return; you will retain partial knowledge of previous encounters.

Pros
Maintain the role-playing aspect without players suffering too much
Force tight settlements to form
Death won't be something "you should steer clear of", it will become something no one wants to experience

Cons
May become a nuisance to players who die often



This is the death penalty I am leaning towards, although there is one point in it that is too harsh and would revise. What would I change? Well, I don't like the idea that if you die you lose all your items that were on your corpse, because if you were using a special weapon (say the custom weapon you made from the pre-order) you just lost a bunch of money AND your character. No. Instead, the items should remain on your corpse and when your family goes to bury your body they receive any items that were on you when you fell. Thus, you keep the items that took time and money to obtain, but still suffer the penalty of having to rebuild your character again. If your character does not belong to a family, your items can go back to the state and bought back on your new character.

I believe that this death penalty maintains balance in the game and will make people think about the consequences of their actions before they decide to enter battle, while still saving some of the time that was devoted to building that character.

Yukie
04-29-2006, 05:20 PM
Spirits are lame but being reincarnated with all your items and gear still intact isn't?

Am i the only one who thinks thats a little hypocritical?

Anyway didn't Sykoi say they already solved the death thing? ;/ i'unno lol.

uzshka
04-30-2006, 02:12 AM
no, not the only one =P

Masamune
04-30-2006, 04:45 AM
Spirits are lame but being reincarnated with all your items and gear still intact isn't?

Am i the only one who thinks thats a little hypocritical?

Anyway didn't Sykoi say they already solved the death thing? ;/ i'unno lol.

Its not lame at all and does, in fact, preserve a sense of realism. Like I said, when the state gives your body back for burial, they give the items that were on your corpse to your family. This is how it happened sometimes back in 16th century Japan, and even happens now. How do you think those antique katanas that we have today, that I have today and actually study, were passed down from generation to generation? Do you think the samurai lived for 100s of years? Maybe people looted the items off the corpse when they fell, yes, but it was not fellow samurai (which is who will be killing you in battle), it was grave robbers. So I don't see what's so lame about that, as opposed to going into a state of sleep or having a spirit.

There is a difference between starting your character all over again with items that your "family" has been collecting over generations AND running to your corpse as a spirit to ressurect yourself.

By the way, you used hypocritical wrong. Hypocritical, which is characterized by hypocricy, is professing feelings or virtues one does not have. And as you can see, I do have these feelings about the death system.

So, next time you try to put someone down, make sure you use the correct term. Because there ARE ways, believe it or not, to get your point across without saying something negative about the person. :p

Raku
04-30-2006, 07:13 AM
I know this is off topic, but, masamune, are you an admin?

BigE
04-30-2006, 07:36 AM
maybe some kind of item insurace could work? It should be costly so you can only inssure a select few items(like your prized sword).

Masamune
04-30-2006, 07:52 AM
I know this is off topic, but, masamune, are you an admin?

Well I'm with the dev team now, if that's what you're asking.

maybe some kind of item insurace could work? It should be costly so you can only inssure a select few items(like your prized sword).

That could work too, just as long as when you die you don't lose EVERYTHING you have worked so hard to obtain.

Sykoi
04-30-2006, 09:27 AM
You can't have a yellow username, please change it.

Masamune
04-30-2006, 12:57 PM
You're wrong, its not yellow, you must need to fix your monitor. :-P

I do think the death penalty needs to be balanced though, like most things in life, balance is key. However, I like the idea brought up about insuring your items in case you lose them.

Yukie
04-30-2006, 04:24 PM
This post contained a reply to Masamume.

Then I realised there's no point trying to reason with a jack ass and that I never insulted him in my first post, although it seems I hurt his e-peen by disagreeing with him. So to stop further flames i deleted it.