Concerned [Archive] - Eyes Out Entertainment Forums

View Full Version : Concerned


uzshka
02-25-2007, 07:07 AM
READ THIS FIRST!!! (If you find this top text biased tell me asap)

This thread bring to attention my concerns about EOE and TLAW. There have been many intelligent arguments from both sides and before you make your own opinion on the matter or let your choices be influenced by this thread, it is much advised that you read ALL of it. The thread has not yet come into a conclusion. Those defending the EOE team have presented an argument, yet it is a matter of opinion as to whether it answers concerns presented.
_______________________________________________

Original Post:

I find it slightly disconcerting that EOE, a seemingly competent company, is having trouble raising a measly $129. In the past few months I have begun to question the professional competence of EOE and the Tatsumaki project.

I have been here for almost a year now and the progress achieved has, in my mind, been poor. The amount of evidence to support any progress certainly does not warrant an appeal for money from customers who have already donated large amounts of money. I also find it concerning that people who have pre ordered apparently receive more updates, while regular members seem to be in the dark. I personally find little sense in pre ordering a product when I have very little assurance I will get my money’s worth, if anything at all. It is very disappointing that the company is forced rely on its relatively very small community to carry its financial burden.

Initially I was under the impression that Tatsumaki was being developed by a competent body of developers. The Wiki promised a lot but I am starting to wonder if Tatsumaki will ever be completed. Sykoi you said it yourself, "Once again we're faced with a money problem..." time after time appeals for money are made; unfortunately evidence of progress is not.

The lack of updates certainly contributes to a growing feeling of amateurishness that I feel about EOE and what updates are published are unimpressive and uninteresting. The most significant part of Tatsumaki appears to be the forums and the various mini projects that surround it, many of which are unfinished and/or abandoned. The final straw was when Sykoi asked for help on the website. While this seems somewhat unprofessional itself, the real disappointment was that the website which had apparently been in development for some time was as good as nothing, and all that we are left with is a poor cookie cutter template.

I sincerely hope that I am merely disillusioned by the seeming lack of competence, and that the next few weeks will prove me wrong. I also hope that the community and the developers will take this thread as a serious expression of my concerns, and will not discredit me for presenting my opinion in what I would consider an appropriate manner.

Arakawa Nobuaki
02-25-2007, 07:14 AM
Well, the way I see it...

This is not Blizzard.
This is not Turbine.
This is not even Buka or Valve (when they were still working on HL 1).

It reminds me more of Roma Victor.

The guys here don't have a huge company backing them up, supplying them with manpower and money, like it happens in the big names in the industry. But even Blizzard once started exactly like EOE. Or take the guys who made the first Counter Strike.

I'm also not really sure what kind of great progress you expect within one year. Compare it with any other MMORPG. Let's take Stargate Worlds. There's barely anything new on their site. A few articles, a couple of screenshots and mainly concept art. Not much has changed there either within the last year (and I'm quite sure that the guys at SGW have more manpower and money than EOE).

I'm positive and stick with the Old Badger's idea of patience. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Time will tell. But I refuse to grow grey hair over it.

Sykoi
02-25-2007, 11:56 AM
I find it slightly disconcerting that EOE, a seemingly competent company, is having trouble raising a measly $129. In the past few months I have begun to question the professional competence of EOE and the Tatsumaki project.

I have been here for almost a year now and the progress achieved has, in my mind, been poor. The amount of evidence to support any progress certainly does not warrant an appeal for money from customers who have already donated large amounts of money. I also find it concerning that people who have pre ordered apparently receive more updates, while regular members seem to be in the dark. I personally find little sense in pre ordering a product when I have very little assurance I will get my money’s worth, if anything at all. It is very disappointing that the company is forced rely on its relatively very small community to carry its financial burden.

Initially I was under the impression that Tatsumaki was being developed by a competent body of developers. The Wiki promised a lot but I am starting to wonder if Tatsumaki will ever be completed. Sykoi you said it yourself, "Once again we're faced with a money problem..." time after time appeals for money are made; unfortunately evidence of progress is not.

The lack of updates certainly contributes to a growing feeling of amateurishness that I feel about EOE and what updates are published are unimpressive and uninteresting. The most significant part of Tatsumaki appears to be the forums and the various mini projects that surround it, many of which are unfinished and/or abandoned. The final straw was when Sykoi asked for help on the website. While this seems somewhat unprofessional itself, the real disappointment was that the website which had apparently been in development for some time was as good as nothing, and all that we are left with is a poor cookie cutter template.

I sincerely hope that I am merely disillusioned by the seeming lack of competence, and that the next few weeks will prove me wrong. I also hope that the community and the developers will take this thread as a serious expression of my concerns, and will not discredit me for presenting my opinion in what I would consider an appropriate manner.



We're all doing this for free, and last year I spent close to $2,000 of my own money to keep Tatsumaki alive
Jay, our lead programmer, has a full time job at THQ, a wife, and other things going on in his life... But he still makes time for Tatsumaki when he can.
We have had money troubles because we hadn't released an update anywhere for close to a year, simply because we had to fix the problems we found in alpha.
We're all busy with numerous things in our own lives... Such as full time jobs, college, and loved ones
We currently only have three programmers with the hefty task of programming the ENTIRE GAME by themselves... We're not about to pull an 'Anarchy Online', and release a year earlier than we should with our engine half working, most of the game elements broken, and a horribly unstable server.


We are an independent team of people dedicating all of their free time, money, and hard work... And frankly I'm getting sick and tired of not being respected because of it. I've had bills I needed to pay, and things I've wanted to buy for years... Yet, I've had to put over $2,500 of my own money into Tatsumaki just to keep it alive for the fans since the project was started... We don't HAVE to have a site, we don't HAVE to update you... But we enjoy doing it, so we're going to continue to do it.


all that we are left with is a poor cookie cutter template.
The eyesoute.com's site design is merely temporary until we are able to find an actually well designed one that works... I didn't want to put the community through another month of waiting just to fix up a design... I wanted to be able to release updates as soon as possible, as I knew everyone was getting bored. I've been working 12 hour days to try to get everything in working order on the site, finding more people to help, and raising money so we don't have to sell out and lose all creative control to a publisher or investors.

If we ever decided to sell ourselves to a publisher we would lose all creative control, and Tatsumaki would turn into a WoW clone, simply because thats the most popular MMO right now.

Herede
02-25-2007, 12:36 PM
I find it slightly disconcerting that EOE, a seemingly competent company, is having trouble raising a measly $129. In the past few months I have begun to question the professional competence of EOE and the Tatsumaki project.

I have been here for almost a year now and the progress achieved has, in my mind, been poor. The amount of evidence to support any progress certainly does not warrant an appeal for money from customers who have already donated large amounts of money. I also find it concerning that people who have pre ordered apparently receive more updates, while regular members seem to be in the dark. I personally find little sense in pre ordering a product when I have very little assurance I will get my money’s worth, if anything at all. It is very disappointing that the company is forced rely on its relatively very small community to carry its financial burden.

Initially I was under the impression that Tatsumaki was being developed by a competent body of developers. The Wiki promised a lot but I am starting to wonder if Tatsumaki will ever be completed. Sykoi you said it yourself, "Once again we're faced with a money problem..." time after time appeals for money are made; unfortunately evidence of progress is not.

The lack of updates certainly contributes to a growing feeling of amateurishness that I feel about EOE and what updates are published are unimpressive and uninteresting. The most significant part of Tatsumaki appears to be the forums and the various mini projects that surround it, many of which are unfinished and/or abandoned. The final straw was when Sykoi asked for help on the website. While this seems somewhat unprofessional itself, the real disappointment was that the website which had apparently been in development for some time was as good as nothing, and all that we are left with is a poor cookie cutter template.

I sincerely hope that I am merely disillusioned by the seeming lack of competence, and that the next few weeks will prove me wrong. I also hope that the community and the developers will take this thread as a serious expression of my concerns, and will not discredit me for presenting my opinion in what I would consider an appropriate manner.

You know what uzshka? I understand your concern. I'm not offended by your post, as I find the points you've presented here to be completely legitimate. From the community members' perspective, I can imagine that it seems like we're not making any progress at all. I guess the question you're all asking yourselves after reading uzshka's post is, is this true? Yes and no.

As far as progress goes, the rendering engine has been rewritten from scratch. From the eyes of a mere network programmer, it is designed in a far more logical and efficient way than the old one was. On top of that, the new engine allows for more pleasing visuals than we could hope to get from the old one. Jay has done a great job, especially considering that - as Sykoi previously mentioned - he has a day job at a game programming company and a wife. As you can imagine, however, the rewrite of the engine took a great deal of time. Now, approximately a year after the rewrite begun, the engine is rapidly approaching a state of completion, again, thanks to Jay's efforts.

Pretty much the same thing has been going on on the server side. The old server we used to have would not have been able to handle the vast per-shard player numbers which we are hoping for. The design has been ripped up and reworked several times during the development process, resulting in messy code. The server is, and was, my sole responsibility and I take the blame for the slip-up. I am currently in the process of rewriting the server from scratch, and, hopefully, it will be complete enough for early testing within a few weeks.

The bottom line is: yes; we are making progress - but not as much as we had hoped for, due to the aforementioned set-backs.

The only point that I directly disagree with you on is the one about the website. Sure, the design is not top-notch, but Sykoi certainly has a point - would you rather have waited a few more weeks to have the site up just for a slightly better design? I believe that in the meantime, we would have lost even more fans. The site engine itself is, however, very advanced and secure, and opens up many possibilities we did not have before in terms of content/update distribution and management.

ojwk
02-25-2007, 01:31 PM
I'm going to comment on this tomorrow with my own views but i'd just like to say that I think it is very unprofessional and childish for somebody to move this post - something extremely related to Tatsumaki, into the forum, Et Cetera, a forum devoted for topics of usless conversation.

This does nothing more but to further Uzshka's claims of little or no levels of professionalism being excercised by EOE.

Sykoi
02-25-2007, 01:35 PM
I moved it here as it didn't discuss Tatsumaki, it discussed Eyes Out Entertainment and the development of Tatsumaki.
The Tatsumaki forum is meant solely for Tatsumkai: Land at War, nothing else.

ojwk
02-25-2007, 01:39 PM
And this is reason enough to move it to "A forum for useless conversations, testing signatures, and flame wars."?

As far as my logic goes this threads position is more closely related to T:LAT than a forum of mindless drivel.

Sykoi
02-25-2007, 01:40 PM
I will move it to General, however if this turns into a flame war or a way to insult us after we have worked very hard, its coming back to the 'et cetera' forum.

ojwk
02-25-2007, 01:44 PM
I moved it here as it didn't discuss Tatsumaki, it discussed Eyes Out Entertainment and the development of Tatsumaki.
The Tatsumaki forum is meant solely for Tatsumkai: Land at War, nothing else.

So your original basis for moving the thread was flawed then? I'm not trying to poke holes but unconsidered decisions annoy me.

uzshka
02-25-2007, 01:49 PM
I will start off by saying how appalled I am that you moved this post to et cetera. I expressed my concerns with utmost sincerity and seriousness and you brush it aside to a forum for useless conversations and flame wars. As much as you may be offended and enraged by my post, I would hardly consider your personal emotions to be enough justification for such action.

Sykoi I do not mean to disrespect you, and I am sorry that you understood it that way. I would think it odd to say this wasn't at least slightly expected, and you must understand that we are not all as knowledgeable on the matter as you are. Therefor you would do well to restrain your frustration and if nothing else dismiss the post entirely as a pointless show of ignorance. Yet it is only fair to allow serious discussion for matter like this. It would be disappointing should you adopt the oppressive forum policies of a company such as SOE.

I understand that real life does get in the way of a project like this. This begs the question of whether the project is altogether far too ambitious, regardless of the reasons for the lack of time, money and skilled workers. Excuses are no substitute. Noble as your quest may be, a complete, unique, and successful mmorpg with an entirely new engine is no small task.

EDIT:Thank you for moving this to a more appropriate forum. I forgot to mention than now that I am enlightened on the issue of the website, I will mock it no more. It was the initial appearance of the website and the last minute plea for suggestions with an "I've been doing it all wrong." which gave me my seemingly false impressions.

ojwk
02-25-2007, 01:53 PM
I will move it to General, however if this turns into a flame war or a way to insult us after we have worked very hard, its coming back to the 'et cetera' forum.

The only person who seems to be consider the purpose of the post is to insult Tatsumaki is you. To me it seems like a perfectly sensible discussion albeit with one steaming administrator.

Sykoi
02-25-2007, 02:01 PM
I understand that real life does get in the way of a project like this. This begs the question of whether the project is altogether far too ambitious, regardless of the reasons for the lack of time, money and skilled workers. Excuses are no substitute. Noble as your quest may be, a complete, unique, and successful mmorpg with an entirely new engine is no small task.

I appreciate the concern, however we are making quite a bit of progress... In fact our actual engine is, according to the man who has worked on it for the past year, created it from scratch, and does this type of thing for a living, "99% done"... So as far as the engine goes - no, its not too ambitious.

As for the game itself, not one of us is willing to give up on it, ever - for any reason. And as ambitious as it sounds, when you start thinking about the various features we have planned logically, they're actually a bit easier than most MMOs on the market. Take the crafting system for instance - sounds complex, right? Well... The initial system is, however after that its just a matter of adding new items to create more end results than most RPGs out there.
And the combat system? Like crafting, the initial system may be complex - but after that its just menial work, that we're opening up to the user as well.

As hard as it may be to believe, I've been planning Tatsumaki for years, and was even planning it in my free time before we had even started... I've made sure that everyone we hire is dedicated, loves the project, and is good at what they do.
And while the initial start up is a giant leap, the expansion onto other various items is easy compared to it, and other games in the genre.

And to further expand on this thought, I thought I would mention that we're planning on going the route of "Asheron's Call", and continuously releasing various new things in monthly updates, after release. Does this mean the game will be released incomplete? No, but we will be expanding upon it anyways.



I will start off by saying how appalled I am that you moved this post to et cetera. I expressed my concerns with utmost sincerity and seriousness and you brush it aside to a forum for useless conversations and flame wars. As much as you may be offended and enraged by my post, I would hardly consider your personal emotions to be enough justification for such action.

Well quite frankly, most places would simply delete your post... I simply moved yours because, at the time, it seemed as if it was a flame directed towards our hard work, and after the recent "Tatsumaki is a scam" trolls, who can blame me?



and you must understand that we are not all as knowledgeable on the matter as you are.

The new site is meant to change all this... And while we're having some problems getting a video up (Filefront does not currently have an API to tie in with our system), we will try to get a few up, as well as more content up as soon as we can.



The only person who seems to be consider the purpose of the post is to insult Tatsumaki is you. To me it seems like a perfectly sensible discussion albeit with one steaming administrator.

I am steaming because I have put all of my life, money and hard work into Tatsumaki, as has everyone who works on it. I apologize for losing my temper, however I do not appreciate ignorance being encouraged for something I care so much about. I moved it to et cetera, and "steamed", because I wanted to squash any misconceptions before they had a chance to become solidified in the public's eye... We've been working our asses off, but a single person can come by and post in a public area, thus resulting in that post being the first thing anyone sees and solidifying their view of the game without knowing the facts.



So your original basis for moving the thread was flawed then? I'm not trying to poke holes but unconsidered decisions annoy me.

My decision was not flawed, however I did not wish an all out war to be started in a forum meant for intelligent discussion on various ideas related to Tatsumaki.

Arakawa Nobuaki
02-25-2007, 02:11 PM
Too ambitious, hardly. I can only compare it with the Star Wars Combine. Agreed, they don't use a 3D engine there, but the client is not your next-door-done-within-a-couple-of-weeks thing that many use (in fact, they had different clients over the years) and they do have ~3,000 active players. Plus, the game is quite complex. The Combine is also made by people in their free time, it's been around 7, 8 years and is far from finished yet. For example, there is no combat in the game as of yet and it took them several years to implement something as simple as upgrading your skills. Yet, as mentioned before, there's some 3,000 active players around regularly.

SOE's "oppressive" forum policy is there for a reason. I've seen countless of times where people, who were not even playing Galaxies anymore, were outright bitching and flaming on the SOE board. Certainly mods begin to act more aggressive if something like this happens several times. And frankly, I would outright permanently ban such people. SOE mods are quite nice in that matter, IMO. I can't believe I'm defending SOE, however, I know myself what being mod or even admin means. It's not necessarily fun and more than often pretty annpying and hard work. Sometimes you get to deal with people who're so incredibly stupid that you wonder why they're still alive. And then you get the nice trolls, bitchers, moaners, etc. And then comes the point when you say "**** them" and start turning into a "mod nazi" (I got called that once) when you adapt the philosphy "...or else". As for the initial post, I agree with Sykoi. Many places would have just deleted it. Other players would also have added a warning to you.

Additionally, none of us is really a "paying customer". We don't really have a right to get updates. Heck, I'm also watching Stargate Worlds (again, yes), and frankly... when I look at their website and their updates and consider these guys are a professional company that paid millions for the SG-1/SGA license... Let me just say... it doesn't really phase me either. There's not much around, a few screenshots, mainly concept art, a little information about player classes, but that's it. The website's not really breathtaking either. But that's pretty normal for any project that has either barely entered alpha or not even any testing stage at all. Age of Conan, same thing. Not much info, a clean, small, neat website, but nothing spectacular either.

Additionally... well, let me just say that I took the comment about the "poor cookie cutter" website as somewhat disrespecting.

A project of such size, whether with a 3D client or not, takes time. That's how it is. And the crew doesn't always update with everything they made progress in at any given time. It takes time. Frankly, if EOE would update us every time they'd make progress with something, they'd spend more time updating us than actually working on the project.

uzshka
02-25-2007, 02:19 PM
Thank you for this reply Sykoi, it has done much to renew my confidence in you and your team far more than your earlier one.

Also, I will forgive you for your original rash actions towards this post and I appreciate the fact that you took the time to return to it seemingly free from your original frustration, where many other companies would have merely ignored or deleted it, as you said. However your actions were still motivated mainly by the anger my post caused, and it is hardly fair to compare this post to the "Tatsumaki is a scam" posts.

Appreciated also is the general attention you have given this post, regardless of the initial feedback. I remember many a well crafted post of disgruntlement on the Star Wars Galaxies forums which were deleted, locked and/or ignored.

Arakawa Nobuaki
02-25-2007, 02:22 PM
And I remember many well crafted posts on Galaxies that turned into outright bitching, moaning and flaming of the game and it's devs, often by people who were not playing anymore. That mods take harsh actions after while whenever such a post pops up is not a surprise. I'd do it too.

uzshka
02-25-2007, 02:41 PM
Too ambitious, hardly. I can only compare it with the Star Wars Combine. Agreed, they don't use a 3D engine there, but the client is not your next-door-done-within-a-couple-of-weeks thing that many use (in fact, they had different clients over the years) and they do have ~3,000 active players. Plus, the game is quite complex. The Combine is also made by people in their free time, it's been around 7, 8 years and is far from finished yet. For example, there is no combat in the game as of yet and it took them several years to implement something as simple as upgrading your skills. Yet, as mentioned before, there's some 3,000 active players around regularly.

SOE's "oppressive" forum policy is there for a reason. I've seen countless of times where people, who were not even playing Galaxies anymore, were outright bitching and flaming on the SOE board. Certainly mods begin to act more aggressive if something like this happens several times. And frankly, I would outright permanently ban such people. SOE mods are quite nice in that matter, IMO. I can't believe I'm defending SOE, however, I know myself what being mod or even admin means. It's not necessarily fun and more than often pretty annpying and hard work. Sometimes you get to deal with people who're so incredibly stupid that you wonder why they're still alive. And then you get the nice trolls, bitchers, moaners, etc. And then comes the point when you say "**** them" and start turning into a "mod nazi" (I got called that once) when you adapt the philosphy "...or else". As for the initial post, I agree with Sykoi. Many places would have just deleted it. Other players would also have added a warning to you.

Additionally, none of us is really a "paying customer". We don't really have a right to get updates. Heck, I'm also watching Stargate Worlds (again, yes), and frankly... when I look at their website and their updates and consider these guys are a professional company that paid millions for the SG-1/SGA license... Let me just say... it doesn't really phase me either. There's not much around, a few screenshots, mainly concept art, a little information about player classes, but that's it. The website's not really breathtaking either. But that's pretty normal for any project that has either barely entered alpha or not even any testing stage at all. Age of Conan, same thing. Not much info, a clean, small, neat website, but nothing spectacular either.

Additionally... well, let me just say that I took the comment about the "poor cookie cutter" website as somewhat disrespecting.

A project of such size, whether with a 3D client or not, takes time. That's how it is. And the crew doesn't always update with everything they made progress in at any given time. It takes time. Frankly, if EOE would update us every time they'd make progress with something, they'd spend more time updating us than actually working on the project.

I'm sorry but to me this Star Wars Combine seems like a bit of a poor comparison considering the rather minimal similarities. I'd rather not go into that right now.

And yes I agree with you there are many people who ***** and flame on the SWG forums, but there are also many intelligent criticisms of the game which dont hurt anyone, although it must be admitted many of these threads do turn ugly. Nowadays these criticisms are obviously far less relevant than at the time the NGE was released. Anyway, better stay on topic and leave this issue to the people already arguing about it.

About your mention of Stargate worlds. The whole initial reason for concern was the lack of reasons to believe in this mmorpg. SGW is being developed by professionals, has plenty of funding, a super brand and many partners and whatnot. Its not hard to believe in it. Yep, life ain't fair.

Age Of Conan is in my opinion very spectacular indeed. Loads of amazing screenshots and videos, craploads of positive press and heap of awards to show off. Perhaps you just haven't checked on their progress recently.

I'm a bit sick of hearing this "oh if they release updates they wont get the game done" This is probably only my opinion but I wouldn't mind a post every now and then with a little of what the devs have been up to. Just to give us the feeling that everything is rolling along. I would also think its in the best interests of the company to throw us a bone every now and then, keep us drooling. Although, I don't think I am in a position to tell eoe what they should and should not do.

Masamune
02-25-2007, 02:44 PM
Uzshka, I need to ask, but why are you so concerned about the lack of progress? What do you exactly find so disturbing and unsettling about it, because as far as I can tell you haven't pre-ordered, so, you haven't invested into the actual development process. How can you then turn around and criticize? You're not concerned about your own money, which I would understand, so I'm just trying to find your logic behind this whole post. (Sorry if I sound aggressive, I'm not trying to be :) )

You also have to realize when you write posts like this you ARE, whether you realize it or not, hurting the community by putting doubt in everyone's mind. Why should people then help and pre-order when one of the long time forum members is doubting what is being accomplished? Instead, it would have been better to address this to Sykoi in a PM and if he didn't help you or settle your concerns, you then publicly state what it is you're troubled about.

This is probably only my opinion but I wouldn't mind a post every now and then with a little of what the devs have been up to.

You should read the developer journals at eyesoute.com, that's what they're there for.

ojwk
02-25-2007, 03:06 PM
My decision was not flawed, however I did not wish an all out war to be started in a forum meant for intelligent discussion on various ideas related to Tatsumaki.

So why did you change it back? It's one thing to make an unconsidered decision but another to not stick by it.

Masamune
02-25-2007, 03:21 PM
Ojwk, please just let it go, Sykoi was mistaken, he was trying to protect his work and others. Whether his decision was flawed or not, in order to satisfy others he gave in to their wishes, what good is it to dwell on something when the matter has been solved?

Senshi
02-25-2007, 03:22 PM
I find it slightly disconcerting that EOE, a seemingly competent company, is having trouble raising a measly $129.
I don't know what world you are from, but $129 is quite a large chunk of money.

The amount of evidence to support any progress certainly does not warrant an appeal for money from customers who have already donated large amounts of money.

People "who have already donated large amounts of money" already have the evidence they need to know if they should help out or not.

I also find it concerning that people who have pre ordered apparently receive more updates, while regular members seem to be in the dark.

The money from pre-ordering goes toward keeping EOE alive, people who help like that, and have that much faith in the game, should receive at least a bit more than people who just sit there and help in no apparent way.

I personally find little sense in pre ordering a product when I have very little assurance I will get my money’s worth, if anything at all.

The decision of someone to pre-order is based on how much faith the person has in EOE and in Tatsumaki.

It is very disappointing that the company is forced rely on its relatively very small community to carry its financial burden.


EOE isn't one of those big companies that has all the funding in the world. Its a group of people who got together, and seriously decided to put plenty of hard work and effort into a game. All of that money goes to paying for a server for the site, game and everything else.

Initially I was under the impression that Tatsumaki was being developed by a competent body of developers.

And it is being developed by a competent body of developers. But it is a very small body of developers compared from many of the other MMORPGS out there.
The Wiki promised a lot but I am starting to wonder if Tatsumaki will ever be completed. Sykoi you said it yourself, "Once again we're faced with a money problem..." time after time appeals for money are made; unfortunately evidence of progress is not.

In the past two and a half years that I have been a member of this community, Sykoi has begged for money only twice.

The lack of updates certainly contributes to a growing feeling of amateurishness that I feel about EOE and what updates are published are unimpressive and uninteresting. The most significant part of Tatsumaki appears to be the forums and the various mini projects that surround it, many of which are unfinished and/or abandoned. The final straw was when Sykoi asked for help on the website. While this seems somewhat unprofessional itself, the real disappointment was that the website which had apparently been in development for some time was as good as nothing, and all that we are left with is a poor cookie cutter template.

The people at EOE spend most of their time actually working on the game instead of worrying about updates, websites, and forums. And as for the comment about "the mini projects surrounding it", just because they seemed abandoned, doesn't mean that they are. The anime project is currently on my over-cluttered drawing board, being worked out, re-written a bit, and drawn out. I've got my studies, real life, that, and the Tatsumaki fansite that I have been working on all on there. When people have that much to do, they worry about actually doing it, and not about proving to other people that they are doing it.

Sykoi
02-25-2007, 03:32 PM
So why did you change it back? It's one thing to make an unconsidered decision but another to not stick by it.


Actually if you would pay attention rather than needlessly attacking me, you'd realize I didn't move it back to the original forum... I moved it from Tatsumaki to Et Cetara to General

the sneak
02-26-2007, 12:22 AM
Hi Everybody,

One thing I will always support, is criticism. I think that it helps to make sure that things are working well, and helps to push for change. And I think that is important in any community.

That being said, I am suprised this thread exists at all. This is a community project. I didnt come into this to attack anyone because I dont think that is constructive, but that is my point. I put my money into this, just like a lot of the rest of us here. And I did it because I WANT to see this succeed. I have never understood the point of attacking things without direction for something better. Of course things could be better, but thats why Sykoi asks for help. What more could you really ask for from someone, than to have a team of developers have an open community project that if you participate can actively have an affect on.

I dont like the idea of what these threads represent, as I said.. I support criticism, I think its a very important part of the creative process. But complaining about problems or focusing on aspects that don't have an end I think is very destructive. this team is always here. commenting on statements, being involved in the community, keeping the community informed of what is going on. All you have to do is read whats going on.

To that end:

If you think the website design sucks, suggest something better.
If you think the design team isn't doing their job as well as they could be, step up and offer your assistance.

What I like about this project, is if know how to do C++ or, scripting, or network design, or was learned in ancient Japanese lore, I could assist more and more.

I paid my 50 dollars for pre-order. I am going to donate more, because I want this to work. If it doesnt, and it fails. thats the risk I take. But I have more than faith, I have the proof in what pre-ordering provides.

keep up the good work guys.

thats my rant.

Delerium
02-26-2007, 01:00 AM
It is funny how people who have risked nothing complain about something they have had no help in creating.

Yes there is a risk to investing in a game that is not made. But the greatest rewards come from taking risks. If you didn't think this game was a good idea then you would not post here. A good product comes from a good idea and the means to make it reality. Many people are working very hard to make this game happen. They all want this to work and are trying very hard to make it happen. This game will happen sooner if the people doing all the work can keep doing it and not answering pointless posts like these. If you want this to happen then get involved, yes donate money, help in some way!

Arakawa Nobuaki
02-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Sneak, it's easier to just attack things without bringing in ideas. Bringing ideas, being constructive, takes effort. And effort is the new deadly sin.

Delerium
02-26-2007, 01:26 AM
I just don't see how people throwing their mental feces around here helps anything. If people don't like the wait, there is an x on the top right they can click on. Keep up the good work EoE!

uzshka
02-26-2007, 08:30 AM
Uzshka, I need to ask, but why are you so concerned about the lack of progress? What do you exactly find so disturbing and unsettling about it, because as far as I can tell you haven't pre-ordered, so, you haven't invested into the actual development process. How can you then turn around and criticize? You're not concerned about your own money, which I would understand, so I'm just trying to find your logic behind this whole post. (Sorry if I sound aggressive, I'm not trying to be :) )

You also have to realize when you write posts like this you ARE, whether you realize it or not, hurting the community by putting doubt in everyone's mind. Why should people then help and pre-order when one of the long time forum members is doubting what is being accomplished? Instead, it would have been better to address this to Sykoi in a PM and if he didn't help you or settle your concerns, you then publicly state what it is you're troubled about.


No, I am not concerned for my own money. However, I am concerned for the future of Tatsumaki, as it is a project I would sincerely like to see succeed. I would hardly commit myself to something like this otherwise. Part of the purpose was indeed to find explanations. I have followed the progress of Tatsumaki for quite some time, all the while growing more suspicious of integrity of the project. The idea of it being a scam did cross my mind, although that was not something I intended to publicly state, especially as I did not consider it likely either. The reason I chose the forums was partly because I felt that there might be others who think the same way, but who are either not motivated enough for the commitment it would involve, or are just plain scared of being bashed to oblivion by die hard fans (Something I hope this wont degenerate into.) Perhaps the “Tatsumaki is a scam” troll was simply unimpressed for the same reasons as I, but did not have the energy to display his/her concerns in a less childish and more thoughtful manner. It seems I have been proven wrong to some extent on this idea. I also wished for a larger range of feedback from the community, people who might agree or disagree with all or some of my points

My intention was in fact to cause some doubt, however evil that may sound when said like that. I was personally very wary of pre-ordering for the reasons mentioned and it felt that people were simply throwing away money into an unpromising project. Yes, it is none of my business what people do with their money, but I did wish to introduce some sceptism. My aim however was not to directly disrupt the project. I think it is more important that the community be convinced that it is a good idea to pre order, rather than convincing the pre order people that their choice was a good one. I would not personally base such a decision so heavily on faith.

You should read the developer journals at eyesoute.com, that's what they're there for.

Forgive me for my ignorance.

People "who have already donated large amounts of money" already have the evidence they need to know if they should help out or not.
Very true, yet it seems unfair that they are the ones who must donate further, instead of other community members who are as yet unconvinced that it is a worthy donation.

The money from pre-ordering goes toward keeping EOE alive, people who help like that, and have that much faith in the game, should receive at least a bit more than people who just sit there and help in no apparent way.
Many of the people who just sit there do so because they are, as I said unconvinced. And as you said, the pre order people already have the evidence to know they need to help out. Also I would think the other benefits classify as “a bit more.” No sarcasm intended.

The decision of someone to pre-order is based on how much faith the person has in EOE and in Tatsumaki.
Inevitably to some extent yes, but I think that too much of it is based on faith, too much for my comfort anyway.
EOE isn't one of those big companies that has all the funding in the world. Its a group of people who got together, and seriously decided to put plenty of hard work and effort into a game. All of that money goes to paying for a server for the site, game and everything else.
I am aware of those facts, yet my original point is still as valid. Professional or not, sound financial planning is essential.

In the past two and a half years that I have been a member of this community, Sykoi has begged for money only twice.
Yet unless my memory has failed me there have been more posts with pleas.

Hi Everybody,

One thing I will always support, is criticism. I think that it helps to make sure that things are working well, and helps to push for change. And I think that is important in any community.

That being said, I am suprised this thread exists at all. This is a community project. I didnt come into this to attack anyone because I dont think that is constructive, but that is my point. I put my money into this, just like a lot of the rest of us here. And I did it because I WANT to see this succeed. I have never understood the point of attacking things without direction for something better. Of course things could be better, but thats why Sykoi asks for help. What more could you really ask for from someone, than to have a team of developers have an open community project that if you participate can actively have an affect on.

I dont like the idea of what these threads represent, as I said.. I support criticism, I think its a very important part of the creative process. But complaining about problems or focusing on aspects that don't have an end I think is very destructive. this team is always here. commenting on statements, being involved in the community, keeping the community informed of what is going on. All you have to do is read whats going on.

To that end:

If you think the website design sucks, suggest something better.
If you think the design team isn't doing their job as well as they could be, step up and offer your assistance.

What I like about this project, is if know how to do C++ or, scripting, or network design, or was learned in ancient Japanese lore, I could assist more and more.

I paid my 50 dollars for pre-order. I am going to donate more, because I want this to work. If it doesnt, and it fails. thats the risk I take. But I have more than faith, I have the proof in what pre-ordering provides.

keep up the good work guys.

thats my rant.

The question of whether one has the right to criticise when one couldn’t do better is one which deserves a debate of its own. Personally I think I do think I have the right to criticize. Just as if I went to a restaurant, and the food was rubbish, I would go and complain. I can’t tell them how to do it any better, but I still have the right to express my opinion. Then the chef can go “Oh… really? The carrots with ketchup weren’t good? Well I better do something about it.” Thus he was alerted of the problem and could then take steps to improve the situation. And please note I did not mean that as a direct comparison to Tatsumaki.

As you said, you put money into this because you WANT it to succeed. I also want it to succeed. There are many things I want, but wanting is not always enough justification to part with my money. This comes back to the question of faith which I don’t want to go over again =P

Also, I would gladly help with Tatsumaki, but my skills are hardly good enough to be of any use.

Sneak, it's easier to just attack things without bringing in ideas. Bringing ideas, being constructive, takes effort. And effort is the new deadly sin.

It’s also quite easy to be a smartass. You are attacking my post without bringing in ideas or being constructive. I hope you also realise that it takes a lot of commitment and effort to make a post like this, and to respond to all the differing opinions. I have committed much time, effort and presumably my reputation to do this, It was not a decision taken lightly

I hope that you and Delirium do not cause reason for this to be classified as a flame war or a useless conversation.

Chronor
02-26-2007, 09:30 AM
Even though I feel like I can't contribute, I'll make an attempt.

Uzshka, from my personal opinion, I can understand your reasoning behind your statements. I feel you are trying to open up the community for criticism and, in a way, help by addressing some issues that have been bothering you for some time. I'll admit, I left the community due to inactivity from the boards and a lack of updates and I haven't contributed due to complete apathy. But I have faith in T:Law. (I have faith in a lot of things though :D )

And I believe that this conversation does have merit. If anything, it will only help the community become stronger by addressing the concerns of not only the paying community but the general populous as well. And I'll admit i was not happy to see this thread poking doubt into a game that I want to see succeed, but I can see the value in it now. For example, It's generally known the Syoki and the rest of the team stay pretty busy, but at times I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't feed us (unpaid community) bits of info. And I began to believe that maybe they had taken a break or hit a rut and slowed production. But I couldn't grasp the idea that this project is quite ambitious and while understaffed and underfunded at times, they still work toward the finished product.

So Uzshka, I do understand your point, it was offensive to see it at first, and you raised doubt when you wanted answers to your concerns. But I understand your reasoning and this thread will only strengthen T:Law.

the sneak
02-26-2007, 09:40 AM
uzshka,

I can respect why you would throw yourselves to the wolves. The reason I jumped into this, is in an attempt to keep things moving forward. I understand your frustration. But I cant think of anyone who could be any more frustrated than the people working to put this project together. My brother does web design work for the company we work for, and he sits days in front of his computer non stop trying to work out glitches, overcoming issues he has never faced before. I actually asked him about applying for a position helping on the network side of T-Law, he looked over the application and said "I would have no idea where to begin on some of that stuff." And he runs back end of our whole company.

My point, I didnt come here to attack you for this, or so and so for that. but hope to change the direction that this thread is going. Its right to question, but I think that it should be directed properly. If you have genuine concerns about what is going on, ask Sykoi in a PM.
But, as you said before. a lot of your concerns were addressed. So lets move forward.

uzshka
02-26-2007, 09:41 AM
Yes, I too have much faith in Tatsumaki, when I talked about faith I did not mean I had none of it. If I did not have any faith in Tatsumaki I would not be here. Just thought I would make that clear :)

Also I agree with you on the fact that this will strengthen T:Law and the community, and I feel that the forums will be a better place once the fires of this thread have died down. Time will tell.

Sykoi
02-26-2007, 02:34 PM
I appreciate everyone's concern, and I'm glad uzshka brought this discussion up... However I will be closing this thread in a few days to let it sink to the bottom of the post list.
I'm not trying to hide anything, however - look back through the thread... Its three pages long, each post is around 500+ words, and its a pretty serious discussion. Anyone "stopping by" will take a glance and assume the worst.

If anyone feels this should stay open, I'm fine with that... But if no one minds, I'm going to close it.

Masamune
02-26-2007, 04:09 PM
I'd say if no one new contributes to the discussion in a few days to just close it, otherwise the argument will keep going back and forth and will get nowhere.

uzshka
02-27-2007, 12:26 AM
If it is ok with people I could write a hopefully unbiased summary of the argument to be displayed on the first post, so that any dead thread hunters don't get the wrong impression.

Muscleking131
02-27-2007, 05:12 AM
I just want to say, i read this whole thing. And its a good read, really. I myself havent preordered cuz of doubt. So i understand where uzshkas comin from. The fact that the guys workin on this thing made well put posts backing up their game and its progress infact works well twords making people 'come around' and preorder, i think so anyway. Have to admit the slow to dead forum kinda bums me out, but i am coming around i think. Heck i joined a clan, wasnt gonna do that cuz i thought this was kinda a dream game and i didnt see enough to make me think its gonna happen. Why bother to mess around in a clan?

Anyways im gettin off track, what i mean to say is, basically im sittin here, bored cuz my team didnt show for the game today, and i see this thread has a red dot, so i read the whole thing, and i have to say my faith has been boosted abit cuz of it, and that this shouldnt fade, but somebody should make it short and sweet. I think it would help out.

uzshka
02-28-2007, 07:21 AM
Oh and btw, I don't especially see a reason to lock this thread. Chances are nobody will reply and it will drop down the forums list anyway, besides, it can't hurt if someone wants to add there opinion. If we get anything ugly however I am all for closing the thread.

Tenshin
02-28-2007, 08:42 AM
I think a summary in the first post would be a good idea.

I have to commend you for making this thread, and I think you only created it because you have doubts you wish to be eliminated. You created this post stating your doubts and concerns about the progress and updates.

Updates are usually screenshots, models, videos, and as explained by the team, they've been working heavily on the engine for the past year. I assume once the engine and server are finished there will be a lot more focus put into the more visually appealing parts of the game and details of gameplay, which is what updates are for.

This is a good thread, because as I said, I think everyone has their doubts to a certain degree, and this brings up the issue and allows the team to explain and comfort us, extinguishing our doubts with an explaination. I think there should be an updated first post detailing the main points of doubts followed by the team's solutions and diffusions of those doubts.

Tatsuke
03-04-2007, 10:52 AM
Hopefully, everyone has understood that programming something big like this is really long and could be a real pain in the *** if you have a bug that you have a hard time to find between you're thousand line of codes.

I haven't been here for long I just discovered this game couple days ago (after trying for a few weeks to find a good MMORPG that would meet my expectation), but the fact that the team didn't do nothing never crossed my mind since they seemed really present in the forum answering lot's of question.

For me the reason that I haven't pre-order already is not a question about is the team doing thing cause I'm sure they do and that I know it takes a lot of time to create a game (well if you want bug-free) and I much rather wait for them to do a good job then to release an half-make game. I haven't pre-ordered cause I want to be sure the thing saided about the game will be the game.